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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:48 am 
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Hi All

Sunshine and I are feeling a bit stuck at the moment. I've finished the Recovery course, she's finished the partner's course and we've gone as far as we can with the couple's workshop.

I feel like I'm doing OK - still have impulses that pop into my head, but they're just thoughts and I say to them "Nope, I don't do that anymore" and they go. I don't have to battle against urges.

Sunshine says she's finding it difficult to integrate what's happened. She's now the one with the double life - the outward appearance of a happy marriage, and yet hiding the dark secret of my sexual addiction from just about everyone - except for my family who know about it, but aren't able to support her in any way. So she can't talk it over with anyone in a way that would make it more "real" to her.

And it's difficult for her to build trust in me, because I was so good at hiding what I was doing. We've gone from a situation of her having zero evidence (not even an intuition) that I was acting out, to her having zero evidence of me not acting out. So in some ways, her life has a surreal feeling of "not having changed". She says she'd find it easier to believe that I'd made this whole thing up, than believe the long list of unacceptable behaviours that I brought to her on D-Day + 2.

So we were talking this morning and agreed that I'd post on the couple's board to see if anyone had any suggestions for exercises we could do to help us move forward as a couple?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:43 am 
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There is something amiss if you are doing well, and Sunshine is feeling as she is. I cannot make any form of assessment, obviously, without reading through both of your threads in their entirety, to get a sense of where you both are, because completing the workshops doesn't automatically equate to recovery or healing: You must continue to live according to the health based model (essentially, according to your vision and values). I could go on theorizing about what is missing. There are a number of good books for couple's out there, and if the community would like to make suggestions, that would be great. But, a word of caution, until whatever is underlying this dissonance is resolved, any exercises you do could be putting icing on mud pie. Sure, sometimes you can fake it till you make it, but often that just lends itself to a form of avoidance and denial and the underlying issues remain. It is understandable that she is untrusting, but at the same time she needs to make a choice to let go, or not. There are no guarantees with this work. What you get out of it is relative to what you put in. If she is not ready to make that leap, responsibly and from a place of pure choice, whatever is having her hold back will continue to grab hold of her until the day she is done with it. (Regardless of where you are in your recovery). Does this make sense?

Be well.

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Hi Guided. Just wanted to give you my opinion as the partner of an SA. I think I saw that you first got on RN in September of last year. With all due respect to Coach Mel, she gives excellent feedback... in this case, I think I disagree that something is amiss, because I don't think your wife has been given enough time to heal. But then I don't know for sure when this started for her. D-Day for me was in February of 2009, and though it's rare, I still struggle with sadness and fear. My husband was addicted to porn and masturbation. He fantasized about every woman he saw (except me). Today there is no porn or masturbation, but he still struggles with fantasizing. I think trust is a choice, like love is. Love isn't a feeling, it's a choice. I despised my husband when I found out about 9 years of lies and blame, and intimacy killing behaviors. I honestly thought there was no hope, and love was far from what I felt toward him. But I want to love, and I believe in "for better or worse." So I chose to love him even though I didn't feel it. The same for trust. It's not that I don't think my husband is trustworthy now - in fact, I know he is. He's done the work, I see the concrete changes. When he does struggle, he tells me about it. But knowing these things doesn't change the fact that he deceived me so perfectly for 9 years before. I have to tell myself, "I choose to trust him. And with no present evidence he's doing anything wrong, why shouldn't I trust him?" Some of what partners struggle with, I think, is "reflexive thinking." I see an attractive woman walk by and I'm probably triggered before my husband is. I get that twinge in my stomach that makes me want to vomit, and then I remember, "oh yeah, we're working on this - it's better now, he loves ME." And I move on. It's been 3.5 years. Some people may tell you, I shouldn't have these struggles anymore, but I don't worry about it. I think I may have those moments for the rest of my life. And I don't worry about it. Because I reframe it and move on. I don't think we can have our trust so completely abused and taken advantage of and expect to never feel that fear again. In spite of that, my husband and I are in a most excellent place. After many frequent (and now less frequent) tears, I can step back and say, I'm glad we went through this. Strange, huh? But it's true. I truly feel that we are closer than we ever would have been without this experience. That being said, you asked for suggestions and let me tell you what has helped me.

1. I am free at any time to tell my husband anything I am feeling or think I see him doing. Even after 3 years, he is willing to love me and reassure me in those moments rather than get defensive (a far cry from where he started out). But I am tactful too. If I think he's noticing a woman, I simply say to him "I feel like you're distracted and that your attention might not be where it's supposed to be." or something like that. My husband responds lovingly, but truthfully. "You're right, I'm sorry, thanks for bringing that to my attention." or if I was wrong, he says "I'm fine." and he takes my hand or gives me a hug or something to reassure me that he is really present with me.
2. We have weekly chats, so I can bring up concerns or air my feelings and get support and offer the support he needs as well. This allows us to enjoy the rest of the week without this becoming the only thing we talk about.
3. We need to see concrete changes; our husbands engaged in meaningful activities, investing in together time, helping around the house, spending time with the kids - proof that your values have changed.
4. When I experience fear and insecurity, 3 years into this, my husband realizes that he spent 9 years betraying my trust, and he's willing to let me take my time - even if it takes the rest of my life. The up side of that is, just knowing this about him, has increased my trust and security.
5. I don't know what your faith is, whether or not you believe in God. My husband and I do, and this has been the biggest source for change in our relationship. We pray together. It's very difficult to pray together, and come up fighting. It sets the tone for the day, the hour, the conversation, etc. I can say a lot more about this, but for now, I won't since I don't know your beliefs, but if you'd like me to elaborate, let me know and I will, because as I said THIS HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST SOURCE OF CHANGE - FOR BOTH OF US.
6. Before going places, if I am worried (like to the pool), I ask my husband - have you prepared yourself for this? Do you have a strategy if you see something that causes difficulty for you? He doesn't mind. He appreciates the reminder because he really wants to beat this.
7. He looks at the parental guide on IMDB before choosing movies to make sure there is no nudity.
8. He has agreed to an internet filter, but he's seldom on the computer anymore. And the computer is a room where it is clearly visible.
9. We are working on a shared vision and actively dreaming about our future together.
10. We went through a comprehensive hobbies list and found mutual hobbies to engage in together.
11. We always go to bed at the same time. If I'm not tired yet, I think of it as snuggle time. It sounds silly maybe, but we used to never spend time together in the bedroom, and it's important to me now.
12. We check in throughout the day. We don't go long without at least texting each other to say how's your day.
13. We look for mutual projects - we planned and led a weekend long marriage retreat at our church, and dream about how to fix up or new house.
14. We plan shared experiences.
15. We compliment, touch, and serve each other often. We only prasie each other, never criticize, when other people are around.
16. We are completely open and transparent - I don't have to wonder where he is or what he's feeling or doing. he tells me. and I tell him
17. The second biggest factor in our progress (next to our faith) has been REFRAMING - considering other possibilities to our negative assumptions and giving each other the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know if these are the kind of things you are looking for. The key is to do these things even if you don't really feel like doing them. (Because they show love and build trust and both of those are choices). And they work, and then you find that you do feel like doing these things and you're loving each others' company. If I need to elaborate on any of them let me know.

If you can give your wife time, and be patient, and just let her struggle, but be there by her side to edify, support, encourage, and yes, occasionally apologize still for your contribution to this, and build in the fun and the growth activities above, I think you'll see great changes. But you may have to accept, as my husband has, that your wife may struggle for the rest of her life with that angst, that fear that the other shoe's about to drop. She's as much at risk for relapse as you are. And then the choice is yours to see her and love her through that. If both of you can just say "we are going to live with the consequences of this and do it side by side, and that's okay," you'll find that it gets better. The trust comes, the bad feelings dwindle from frequent to occasional to rare.

I have rambled and I don't know if I've been any help at all, but I will tell you, I am proud of you. I know from my own experience with my husband how hard you've worked to get this far. And I feel for your wife, as well. I share her hurt, her fears, her insecurities, her lack of trust from time to time. She can message me if she wants to chat. I know the two of you can come out of this with great reward. Good luck and keep up the positive changes.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Thanks CoachMel and LMartin for your posts here - they were both most helpful. We read your replies together yesterday evening, but she's currently swamped with work and asked me to reply for both of us.

CoachMel wrote:
a word of caution, until whatever is underlying this dissonance is resolved, any exercises you do could be putting icing on mud pie. Sure, sometimes you can fake it till you make it, but often that just lends itself to a form of avoidance and denial and the underlying issues remain.


Sunshine was wondering what you thought might be being faked here, CoachMel. Me faking recovery, her faking healing, or both of faking "we're getting on fine"?

Ahh, Sunshine is out of her office and she writes:

Possibly what you are saying is that the 'couple' won't work in reality until each partner is healthy in themselves. That makes total sense.

The issue of time is a real one- thank you LMartin for that reminder. Not even a year, John had said two years in one of the first lessons and that is what we are working with. Helpful to be reminded though as we had forgotten.

I am actually feeling much happier since that post. I (sunshine) came to a realisation a couple of weeks or so ago (after we did a cleansing ceremony that Guided suggested) that I could either allow myself to drown in being a victim of a sex addict (now in recovery) or I could take control of my own life again. It was like a switch got pulled. And suddenly I felt ready to 'let go' and live my life fully again. Not be half in two worlds. H healing really is just one side of the equation isn't it. I could see the changes, did believe in them, and yet kept dragging myself back down with the past. I just realised that I had to let that go and actually live in the present. Not in the future, the 'will it all be fine' 'what if' worry, Not in the past 'well it wasn't fine' but in the here and now 'today it is fine and maybe I might have a blip but we will work through that. We have a contract in place. I know what my boundaries, he knows what the boundaries are so let me embrace my life again'. It actually was pretty straightforward but I must have needed to do the work in the meantime.

And that is not to say it is all roses, of course not, but things will come up and we will deal with them. I think I have faith in that and no, I can't see what I can't see, but noone can, so I need to led go of that expectation too. If I get hurt again, so be it. Another life's lesson and my boundaries are clear. I know what the possibilities are now. Hopefully!! My H went very far down the road, further than many on this site I think, so I think it will take a lot to shock me now.

So THANK You for the helpful reminder that
a) I am an individual and I need to value my own path (Mel that is my interpretation of what you are saying which could be totally wrong but that is what I am taking)
b) It is difficult and it will take time and some people do get through this (LMartin)
and all the other helpful action points.

What a wonderful resource this place is.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:31 am 
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Quote:
I just wondered if others had advice. How do recoverers move past recovery? I dont want to leave behind what I have learned. i dont want to be complacent. But nor do I want to live in a cocoon of self-control.


This indicates that you haven’t allowed yourself to take responsibility (in this case responsibility means credit) for what you have done (in this case accomplished i.e. the work that you have done). RN offers a path, but it is up to each member to actively pursue the path, to do the work, and to ingrain the skills and insights they develop along the way. I am not discrediting Jon’s work--the path that he forged is invaluable but, it is not complete, it is not “it”. This workshop is not a magic pill that will make addiction go away, or heal relationships. In the past, we have sometimes referred to this kind of thinking and way of approaching the workshops as “recovery by numbers”; the mentality that thinks, “if I do A, B and C, then I will be recovered (or healed, this isn’t exclusive to those in recovery)”. If this is a mindset that one has, one has missed a significant point which is Personal Responsibility.

I would recommend that you first ask yourself what “moving past recovery” means to you. What are you wanting to move past? What is the motivation? Use the tools that you have learned in the workshop to answer this question for yourself.

Quote:
I think I am just at a crossroads where I feel a little constrained - a bit stuck. Perhaps a little scared to move past the self-control I have learned.


Do you trust yourself? Do you trust the work you have done? Do you trust that you have taken this process to heart, ingrained the skills, practiced them? Do you live by your vision? When you actively live from the health based perspective, you will not be able to not trust yourself. This is where personal responsibility comes in. Whatever it is that you are hanging onto, that manifests as a perceived self-control, is preventing you from being personally responsible. If you are afraid you might slip or relapse, this is an indicator that you are still making external things responsible for your health, or non health.

Quote:
So to be more practical and respond to your question. I think one central problem we face surrounds sex. I have neglected this side of our realtionship for a long time. While I was acting it out, the reasons are obvious. But now it is I suspect a combination of idleness, habituation and fear.


Have you incorporated this into your vision? Do you have a vision for what you want this aspect of your relationship to look like?

Quote:
The danger of congratulating myself for NOT using porn. Wow!


What is wrong for congratulating yourself for not using porn? As long as it is authentic, and not from a place of entitlement, or smugness, or in order to justify other areas where you still have work to do, acknowledging your accomplishment will allow you to begin to have a positive history with yourself, to start to have a healthy pride in the healthy being you are becoming.

Quote:
How do we move on? this place always inspires and educates me - and my missus.


There is a lesson in the partner’s workshop called “life beyond addiction recovery” which is, ironically, “under construction”. Early on this occurred to me as a minor inconvenience, mostly because it saddened me that Jon passed before completing the workshops, and because aside of telling the history of Jon’s passing while the workshops were in progress I didn’t know what to say. At one point I even entertained the idea of writing the final lesson myself. But, then it dawned on me that, just as it is each of us to essentially create our own healing and recovery as we go, using the lessons as our path, it is also up to each of use to complete our own journey. Furthermore, there is no finality, or ultimate destination because healing and recovery are processes and when we transition from this part of our lives, we are not “done” but simply continuing our journey. With that, I realized it is not for me to write the lesson on “life beyond recovery” for anyone but myself. So, that this lesson remains “under construction” now occurs to me as metaphoric.

Be well.

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Quote:
So to be more practical and respond to your question. I think one central problem we face surrounds sex. I have neglected this side of our realtionship for a long time. While I was acting it out, the reasons are obvious. But now it is I suspect a combination of idleness, habituation and fear.

Also ignorance - I have associated sex with almost every emotion except love, to quote that lord of dysfunction, Woody Allen. I want to unite the feelings I have for my wife emotionally with the sexual ones I have for her.


Shaw, I loved what you said in your last post about not having wisdom, just experience. I often hesitate to offer support because I feel so unqualified, yet it is the shared experiences/struggles of addicts and partners alike that has helped me most here on the website. I am still thinking on the rest of your post, but let me just start with this, because i think I can at least be encouraging.

I think the sex part is tough for several reasons. And you touched on a large part of it I think when you mentioned associating sex with every emotion but love. For a long time I struggled with the fact that I couldn't turn my husband on, that he could fantasize about just about any woman except me, that there was no way I could compete with the bodies he sought out in porn, etc. It took a long time for me to realize (and it helped when he became honest about the nature of his fantasies) that I don't want the kind of sex he fantasized about. And I don't want him fantasizing about me that way. His fantasies were void of love or intimacy, as I suspect all fantasies are. But I experienced my own little epiphany one day, and was strangely comforted by it, when I realized that it must be a very difficult task for him to sort out what healthy sex is and isn't and how to create intimacy with me. We had stark differences in our sexual tastes - the difference between what I called "having sex" and "making love." But both are appropriate in a committed marriage, and truthfully we both like both.

But here's the difficulty. I would want him to desire me and be turned on by me and to show that. I wanted to know that he could get excited about thoughts of my body and want to be with me sexually both from an "I love you" kind of way and a "Wow you look hot, gotta have some" kind of way - forgive the poor terminology. But his task was to learn not to objectify and not see me as a "collection of body parts." I wanted him to realize with other women "they're just boobs," yet with me, I wanted him to notice mine. I would get upset if I walked past him naked and he didn't notice. But looking back, I think how hard it must have been for him to know what to do and how to respond. "She wants me to love her and not care just about the boobs, she wants me to care about her boobs,...WTF..." How does a man with a sex addiction transition from seeing beyond the body parts to appreciating them as part of the whole? This became clear to me when I realized I want my body to be appreciated by him and then I read here on the website about another partner who couldn't believe her husband would try to touch her body parts "after all they'd been through."

All of this is just to say, sex is messy with or without the addiction thrown in. We are all so individual and in an ideal world, we would learn and grow in this area with one person only, and then there'd be no sense of normal/abnormal. But alas, that's not us is it? I guess what I'm trying to say is, all you can do is be honest with each other, say what you want and don't want, and try. I read that sex between a married couple is the act of "expressing one's full commitment." What matters is that you are caring about what each other wants and you are present in your mind - I had a rule that if my husband began to fantasize, sex would stop - no matter how far we were into it - I had to rely on his honesty. Now in the beginning there were times when I cried when he "couldn't perform." I took it personally. That just built up fear in him and made the situation worse. But with time and patience and a sense of deep commitment, I now understand how difficult this area is for him. And when the sex doesn't pan out the way one of us hoped, we just lie in each other's arms and appreciate the closeness. Sex is really the least important part of any committed relationship, in my opinion. I think of my patients at the hospital where I work with spinal cord injuries. They'll never have "normal" sex again, but they're going home to committed husbands and wives. I try to just look forward to the time together.

Wow, I am such a rambler. No wonder my husband gets a glazed over look in his eyes when I start talking...

I hope I have been of some encouragement or at least have put your mind at ease to let some of the burden of sex go. It's to be enjoyed, not feared. Look forward to the skin to skin and don't worry so much about how it's going to play out.

Take care.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:47 am 
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Dear Coach Mel and LMartin

Thank you both. As ever Coach M, you speak wisdom. L - you didnt ramble at all. I command your husband now to attend to what you say.

I think Coach Mel is correct - i am still holding onto external validation too strongly. the positive side of my life is that under stress (or not) I tend to live by my vision - almost instinctively. I can't remember the last time when I found myself using sexual rituals to avoid reality.

But that isnt to say I am not guilty of procrastination or lapses in focus.

You ask a wonderful question. What am I hanging onto? I think right now the safety of what I have learned. I sometimes imagine this to be like a little island. I have swum through some shark-infested water and reached this place where I have the time and space to shape a new awareness. But I have a long way to go.

It is this act of reconstruction, I suppose. Where Rn is concerned in all this. Sometime I visit and find myself reading threads - wanting to respond. But right now, I almost don't want to remember the version of my that was defined by those rituals. Does that make sense? It sounds ungrateful - and I think is a version of me missing the point of this place.

As you say Coach Mel:
Quote:
I am not discrediting Jon’s work--the path that he forged is invaluable but, it is not complete, it is not “it”. This workshop is not a magic pill that will make addiction go away, or heal relationships. In the past, we have sometimes referred to this kind of thinking and way of approaching the workshops as “recovery by numbers”; the mentality that thinks, “if I do A, B and C, then I will be recovered (or healed, this isn’t exclusive to those in recovery)”. If this is a mindset that one has, one has missed a significant point which is Personal Responsibility.


I think this is it. I joined in on a community discussion where a long-term recoverer was effectively told off for not doing his thread. I see the point, but I also thought his 'critics' missed the point. Possibly the guy needed to refresh those lessons. But I suspected he needed to do the real work in his own life - to transfer the lessons into the everyday, the minute my minute experience of reality. It's at times like this that I feel a little suffocated. Or to put it more self-critically, that I wonder if some of us cling to the lessons and forums as a way of avoiding living our lives actively?

to learn how your vision can guide you through your masrriage, your sexuality, your sense of time, your friends - even making a cup of tea1!!

I think this is my next stage. Not writing lessons for others - but learning to live my own life by my values. I have come a certain distance - but i want to shift past that.

Oddly, my wife has pointed to the 'under contruction' lessons you mention. In fact, she often points out that some of the issues I am facing = that underlie the sexual addiction - place me closer to the partners on occasion than the addicts. I want to balance this, I guess.

I think I am starting to trust myself. A year ago, I was all bravado. I thought I was secure and then relapsed because I hadnt worked on transferring the lessons to my life. I feel more secure now - instinctively often. But I also know my own limits. In this, I agree with you. I havent taken perssonal responsibility. I am still obeying my rules to the letter - a vital step on the road to health, but not the same thing as health.

LMartin - thank you. You are right - I empathise with your description. I think replacing fantasy with an imaginative engagement with my wife, and our sexual intimacy is vital right now. that sounds vague - possibly because I realise I dont understand what it means. That I have lived in my head - and according to my self-centred fantasies - that I am not sure what a mature engagement looks like.

Your description of mutual awkwardness fits too I think. One of many destructive consequences of sexual compulsion seems to me that it erodes the self-confidence of both partners and addicts. I know I have robbed my wife of a fundamental self-confidence - in herself, me and our relationship.

As you write so well, it will be different from relationship to relationship. And sex is messy.

It is weird to write this. But although I have been on RN for a few years now - it was only recently that I began to think about sex! Or sex as an expression of different emotinos. Not as an extension of myself. What is my sexuality like? How does this relate to my wife's? How does this relate to my own character.

I think I have avoided this for a long time. Strangely! But it is another element I need to examine closely and honestly.

I agree witth you in many ways that sex is the least important part of a relationship. But I think in my own right now it is very important- especially after the addiction. It is important not in itself so much as to what it expresses. As a means of re-building my marraige, and of reflecting where we are at.

I apologise to you for the ramble. Too much Olympics action!!!! London like a ghost town today. The hangover begins.

Thanks again. I like this forum very much. The different perspectives are really helping.

Shaw


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:13 am 
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Great conversation. I want to point out to those who question their contributions that Wisdom can only come from experience. By definition: "Wisdom is the quality of having experience, knowledge and good judgment". Notice how this dictionary definition lists experience before knowledge and good judgment. Doubt yourselves no more! :w:

Quote:
I am still obeying my rules to the letter - a vital step on the road to health, but not the same thing as health.
Quote:
I think I am just at a crossroads where I feel a little constrained - a bit stuck. Perhaps a little scared to move past the self-control I have learned.
Quote:
I guess I am still withholdingg - and as others have said here, I know my wife fears that this is due to continued acting out and lying. Which now it isnt. It is due to my settling for passivity.


I had another thought in terms of this stuck. It sounds to me like it could be due to the same (or similar) elements that made addiction a viable option in the first place (in terms of life management). Fear and control. The element of control/controlling your environment is evident, which is the purpose served by addiction (through escape, avoidance, denial etc.). What are you still trying to control? Emotional intimacy can be very scary. Connecting to another on an emotional level can make us vulnerable to things such as abandonment, rejection and ridicule. It can also make such wonderful things available to us, such as connection, friendship, joy, love... so it is up to each of us to determine if we wish to continue to avoid that which we fear, or if we wish to embrace that which we value, and then take action from there. Just some thoughts.

Be well.

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Thank Coach Mel, LMartin

I think you are right - fear and control are still part of who I am. I think what is different now is my self-awareness, my ability to take the plunge, albeit after some teetering on the brink.

But I am still self-contained - I find it hard to reach out to others, not just my wife. I guess it is still teempting to fall behind a persona than be myself. As you say, fear is a cause, control the means. If I am acting a part, the real me cant be hurt etcc etc.

But I am getting tired of it, and want to do exactly what Coach M says so eloquently:

Quote:
Emotional intimacy can be very scary. Connecting to another on an emotional level can make us vulnerable to things such as abandonment, rejection and ridicule. It can also make such wonderful things available to us, such as connection, friendship, joy, love... so it is up to each of us to determine if we wish to continue to avoid that which we fear, or if we wish to embrace that which we value, and then take action from there. Just some thoughts.


It's funny, my wife said something to me the other day about when we first met - that I was positive and almost cocky, i think in a nice way. Over the years, I have played a part of slightly hesitant, secretive sensitive plant - part of my relying on others to carry me. Getting sympaathy and pity rather than acting from self-confidencce - or my values.

I think that is what I am trying to control - other people's reaction to me. To be liked, and not to be mocked. So I create a fiction that tries to accomplish that. Thhat just occured to me. It is not self-control.

I think that is partly my next stage. Taking responsibility and actively reaching out because I trust my values to steer me right.

Thank you as always. I think my marriage, learning what love really means, is the way through - that way empathy, sympathy, understanding all lie.

Shaw


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:17 am 
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I was looking for a post and found this one...thought I'd bump it.

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:22 am 
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Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 10:46 am
Posts: 56
We as a couple are doing the couples program but I am concerned it stops after stage 2? Is there any further stages or not? I'm hoping this site is still active as so far no one has replied to any messages I've left.

Thank you


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