Recovery Nation

Personal Development Forum
It is currently Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:17 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:06 am 
Offline
Recovery Mentor

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 569
Great post Shaw, enjoyed the video and the parallels with recovery - it's all about shipping :g:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 409
I commend Shaw for posting this video. It has gotten me to think about how to handle goes, my approach to making my first transition, and some notes I took from it that I am going to examine to put it to good use. :g: :g: :g: :g:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:11 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
Bump. :g:

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:07 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
Bump. :g:

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 511
I'm very grateful that this thread got bumped so I could see it. I've had a lot of problems over my 3 years of recovery in trying to be 'intellectual' about it and not doing real recovery. Thinking I was clever and knew it all mainly!

I'll print this out and reread it often. I'll watch the video clip ASAP too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:13 pm 
Offline
Recovery Mentor

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:13 am
Posts: 687
What a wonderful thread:) you all had some deep, meaningful dialogue:)

Seems weird to try and respond to this on here because I am sure I am intellectualizing it! But I did spend the morning breathing and contemplating it.

I can see that intellectualizing recovery efforts keeps me "safe" from the real, messy work of really addressing emotional delays. My intellectual self kept developing through the years but my emotional self is still a preteen. it is so much easier and less threatening to read another lesson, intellectual respond and move on to the next, instead of facing the fear, confusion, embarrassment, frustration of the reality of my emotional life. Now that I am writing this I remember writing yesterday about how I used deception in love addiction. I'd get in a relationship somewhat emotionally intact and as soon as real emotional issues came up I'd revert back to the emotionally damaged child. So if I ignore this part of myself while I am learning, stay in my head, not feeling and connecting, communicating deeply with myself I could end up with a lot of knowledge, and no closer to healing or having a life I want to live. I then use this knowledge to beat myself up for falling short. I am not sure what the answers are yet but I know the idea of communicating deeply with all aspects of myself helps, paying extra attention to vulnerable part of myself. Going slower in everything I do helps, Trying to let go of the pressure I put on myself to know it all. Getting rid of the idea that if I just find the right answer to recovery I will make it. Letting myself become "unmoored" just being (the thought of this was terrifying, I avoided it till I really had no choice, and then once I let go it was strangely comforting, the whole world did not crumble when I was not in control of myself). Letting go of my time frame on things, my expect ions.

This also for me explains some of the dual identity stuff. In work, school (intellectual pursuits) I could be very mature and productive as long as there was a rigid role I was following, but then my emotional life, relationships were a mess. I remember one time I was running a domestic violence shelter by myself, thirty women and kids in crisis, I could efficiently deal with that while I was in a crazy compulsive phone call where I was emotionally melting down with with boyfriend, screaming like a kid, calling him back over and over. I always wondered how I could be highly functioning in one area and so low functioning in emotions.

"basically, the old Zen masters saw that in true compassion, there wasn't a sense that someone was "doing something" to help someone else. To help someone just so that you can think that you're helping someone is ultimately selfish. They just acted out of a will to help others and saw their "doing" as a natural action...but in the process, the world was better off because of it.

I see this point as so important. We have all had times when people are trying to help and it is so irritating, I am sure I have done it to others. I believe it sometimes is because we sense they are not doing it because it really comes from some deep place in themselves, where they can really connect with us it, it is really coming from there own need to be a see themselves as good person, stop our pain, control things, be better than someone ect. This whole "helping" is really dangerous in my mind. For example, a girl the other day told me about a mentor that was trying to help her "I told her my whole life story and she made me feel bad about who I was." Who needs that kind of help!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:37 am 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 849
Location: Sweden
Hi

This is a great thread, but I'm not sure I agree with some of the sentiments voiced here.

I agree that there's intellectualizing is something that won't help us progress if we want to recover. I have myself been sat there many times and thought "I shouldn't do this, I know that his is not good for me" and still done it, for example watching porn. I've also gotten stuck when I've felt that I wanted to do things according to my values, like "I really should do some cleaning" or something like that. I also agree that if we want to help others to make us feel good about ourselves because we are good people, yes that will also not lead us on to a humble path and might very well just lead to us getting stuck in codependency. In my own experience, I've often helped others so as to not need to hink about myself and my life. I.E., helping others has been a way for me to escape issues in my own life.

But, I don't think it's negative to think "I should do this because it's in my values" and then do it. I don't think that's intellectualizing. At the beginning of this thread, a few years ago even (;)) Shaw wrote that being compassionate for 10 minutes a day is a bit intellectualizing, being compassionate should colour one's entire outlook on life. And yes, our values should not be something that we just pick up when it suits us, but on the other hand life is not forever and we all have a lot on our plate. If we throw out the garbage once a day because we feel our values necessitate that act, then IMO, it's ok to do that and think, "well, at least I did this today and by doing so, acted out value X and X".

I also think it's a positive thing to for example be a bit down and think "hm, usually I feel better when I've done a little mentor work on RN and it's part of my values to help others with addiction" and then do it and feel better. I schedule time for when I can sit here and help people. Usually I feel like doing something else less taxing and with a stronger emotional reward (like play a computer game for example) but I remind myself that generosity is an important value. And I sit down here and do what I can to help others.

Lastly, I have problems with passive aggressiveness. At the same time I have generosity as a high value. It's easy for me to get into passive aggressive mode and think things like "when was the last time my wife did the dishes, I always have to do the dishes, etc". I then remind myself that part of being a generous person is to for example do household work without measuring who did the most household work.

In a nutshell, I guess, I don't think there's any harm in keeping your values with you on an intellectual level and in some cases, it's necessary in order to not fall into old destructive patterns (like passive aggressiveness for me). It becomes a problem when you let that intellectualizing become a hindrance to action, but I think there are subtle nuances between intellectualizing and keeping values and action in mind. So to speak.

Have I misunderstood something? Please let me know if I have :pe:

:g:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 511
Lots of perceptive comments here. I guess overall the concept can be boiled down to doing positive, productive, healthy things for positive, productive healthy reasons and to generate positive, productive, healthy feelings within yourself.

Of course, we all need to turn up to work on time, pay our taxes, put the bins out on the allotted date etc etc, but those sorts of things just contribute to the smooth running of our lives and help keep the basic mechanics of life rolling on while we can look at keeping our spiritual and emotional lives in the best sort of place.

Am I oversimplifying things?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:52 am
Posts: 98
Location: Ger
Wow, what a great thread!
Definitely needs to go back to the top again.

I can agree with everyone here and I think, the truths lays between every comment in this thread. We shouldn't forget that black and white thinking, is another obstacle we have to overcome. Thinking and acting both have their place in recovery. And I think that's something we all can agree on, in some instance. In the end what matters most, is what helps us to lead the life we want. It's right, in the long run one might not accomplish what he wants, if he only thinks "well, today I should really be honest". But the rest of the week he's dishonest. This is still a starting point. Knowing how these behaviors are ingrained in our lifes, knowing what we can do about it on an intellectual level paves the path to acting on them. At this point I'm just paraphrasing but again, I think there's nothing wrong with thinking in some instances. Sure, in later recovery there should be a way of "just doing it", but to begin, it's neccessary to create a foundation in our minds. You can't follow your life vision by instinct, you need the intellectual construct. But on the other hand, you can't let your life vision come alive, by just thinking about it.

And another principle, that we should keep in mind is "all or nothing". I don't think it's right to say "one day you'll be at a point where you truly apply this and that's when recovery finally starts". Maybe it's just my own experience, but for me it's always been that way, that those things happen at a different pace - in different areas. Before I really knew about my addiction I struggled mostly with symptons of an anxiety disorder. So basically I focussed on learning about anxiety etc. I read books, I went to therapy etc. And one day I started acting on this. And I did it exactly like that: I said to myself "well, right now in this moment... no matter what.. I'm not going to be anxious". And the more I did that, the more it became ingrained, the more I just naturally not felt anxious. Sure, I still checked in on it and concsiouly monitored it for a while.. but one day I woke up and got that crazy feeling, that I used to be super anxious when talking to strange people, but that's just gone.
So.. where am I getting at with this anecdote. You can't generalize this process in my opinion. Recovery is made up out of so many different things, concepts and tools. You can only see them for what they are. Maybe your addiction awareness is ultra strong and natural, but you just can't concentrate at work, even though you set yourself boundaries. Does this mean you're intellectualizing the whole process? No way. It's an ongoing process. Some things might work better, some things might need some time. It's a general direction, where everything should go. And I think that's the only aspect, were you can truly intellectualize recovery itself, by just thinking about it, by oooonly thinking about it. When you truly don't go in any direction. But every little step you do, be it one lesson per week or the constant monitoring of your thoughts, is already a step in the right direction. In the end this still needs a leap of faith, like some of you've mentioned before. But I think that talking about intellectual recovery vs. real recovery is a (in some points neccessary) generalization. I see it like a spectrum. You start out fully intellectualized. And then you move on, on that spectrum towards a more and more emotional stable status. In some areas you're faster and in others you're slower - but the direction is clear. As long as you don't hold yourself back on purpose, there shouldn't be too much to worry about, in my opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:09 pm 
Offline
Recovery Mentor

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Posts: 161
Very thought provoking and has given me much to ponder. I agree with much of what is said here but maybe not all of it. We're all a little different so parts of this may ring more right or wrong for each of us depending on many, many factors. Regardless, I'm better for having read this and agree that intellectually forcing myself to do something I think is right causes it somehow to feel fake or forced. It lacks the feeling of being genuine yet doing the exact same action without thought seems to somehow give me more emotional value. More of a sense of satisfaction. Maybe that's because I didn't have to think about it so it gives more a feeling of being spontaneous and natural which is precisely what I want. I don't want to have to remind myself to be this way and then act though I also agree with coach Martin that this isn't exactly a bad thing either. The positive value we gain from doing what we think is the right thing could create such positive emotions that it leads us to repeat the behavior until it becomes more natural and spontaneous. Everyone had to start somewhere.

Anyway, great post. I'm very appreciative for everyone's contribution and thoughts.

_________________
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. -David Henry Thoreau


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:14 am 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
Hi beenthere,

I'm interested which parts you don't agree with (I don't say this as a challenge to anything I wrote originally...moreso as things that could be possible points of discussion :s: ).

It's interesting for me to go back and read this...and consider how much I was still intellectualizing things myself when I wrote it. But I'm glad it's one that has endured. :w:

Boundless

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:45 am 
Offline
Recovery Mentor

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Posts: 161
Hi coach boundless,

I guess I just believe that it's impossible to sperate the two completely. Knowing that I've made destructive choices in the past I believe I need to intellectualize some aspects of my life to ensure I'm not falling into old habits. I agree with the idea that reacting and responding in a way that is in keeping with my values is much more satisfying than having to think about it and then doing it. Like I said, it feels fake or forced in some way. It's easy to question if it's genuine or if I'm just forcing myself to take every step and in that way it's not real recovery at all. On the other hand we want to grow in areas and how are we to do that unless we intellectualize what that means to us first? That your behavior starts with you thinking about areas you would like to grow in. Recognizing that this is more the person you want to be. Then pursuing it. Maybe to start you have to sometimes force yourself to do but the value you gain keeps you coming back. That only over time and repetition does it becomes spontaneous and genuine. The satisfaction you gain from this action becomes greater and something you begin to seek out because of how it makes you feel. That if we were able to do this all the time that we would not be here at all.

Maybe I'm overthinking this :w:

_________________
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. -David Henry Thoreau


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group