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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
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Location: UK
I googled why do men look at other women?
basically there were two opposing responses
one written by men stating that all men look at other women because they are other women
the other written by women stating how humiliating and degrading this practice is

now for sure looking is different to scanning and scanning is very common in SA
but we all have friends or know male Non SA's
do they look?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:31 am
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It's my experience that most men do look. The difference is how they look and what they think when they look. How many of them have inappropriate thoughts though? I don't know but have often wondered.

And, Kenzo, how do we really know if our male friends are SA of not? Only one of mine knows about my issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
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Location: UK
Quote:
how do we really know if our male friends are SA of not?


now that really is a great question
but I cannot believe that most men are

innocent until proven otherwise might seem a little naive living in the world we live in but at least it provides hope
thanks for you comment and I agree with you
much appreciated

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Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Location: UK
EtC wrote
Quote:
It's my experience that most men do look. Thave the right to be e difference is how they look and what they think when they look. How many of them have inappropriate thoughts though?

In my experience too but does that make it right?
I expect that "most" women have at times appreciated being noticed by men but equally those same women will have felt abhorrent by being
Scanned
however at the risk of being accused of pigeon holing partners / victims of sex addiction are not "most" women and they have the right to be protected
I wrote in my personal thread

Quote:
There is an old saying that you can look but dont touch
I cannot buy into that, why?
because looking when with a partner humiliates her
looking when she is not there or not aware is dishonest / deceitful
Looking need not be sexual looking not be scanning
but how would she know


I also posted The COACH's thoughts on scanning hoping that these words might help someone sometime

I believe that this would be a very interesting both sides thread, but would it also be provocative?
having had that thought and asked that question I err on the side of conservatism and leave it as it is

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Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:31 am
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Kenzo wrote:
Quote:
how do we really know if our male friends are SA of not?


now that really is a great question
but I cannot believe that most men are



I believe that as well but your comment prompted the question.

Again, I believe most men do look and notice attractive women. I think the difference is that most men look, think to themselves "she's attractive" and then go on about their business.

This is what I do the majority of the time but not always. It's those exceptions that make a huge difference and highlight an area that I need to work on. It's is objectifying women and demeaning them even though they aren't aware of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Deleted - double post


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Posts: 242
Men look at other women because:
1. We (men) are basically lustful creatures;
2. We have been trained, building on that lustful base, to look;
3. We have been trained to put aside/ignore self-control;
4. We are inundated with sexually biased some times very explicit material from every direction;
5. Many of us (particularily those of us here) learned early on to use lust/sex and/or love to help us get through ugly/unpleasent/uncomfortable/painful/shameful situations in out lives.

I'm sure there are many other very valid reasons, but for me these are the biggies......

As Kenzo stated, it's what happens in our head that's important ..... i've long since lost the inappropriate thoughts (except for those about my Wife, i still struggle with that .....), but that's not the way it's seen from the outside ......

As for our male friends .... can't answer that, don't have any close enough to even consider discussing my SA/LA problems with, except for here and it's all out in the open here.....

NO it's not right, or justified, or harmless, or, or, or, but convincing those on the outside of what's REALLY going on inside is impossible ..... for me, it's not enough to KNOW that it's not like it was (and it absolutely was scanning for many years) but that is all that i can do ....

i see the devistation that it's caused for SO many in my life, i see it being perpetuated in my youngest son, i see the damage it's done to his marriage (now divorced), i see the damage it's done to my daughter and her marriage, but most of all the damage it's done to my Wife and our marriage ....

K, this got a little personal and i went off an a rant ....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:54 am 
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Men are biologically driven to inseminate as many women as possible. So just looking at women isn't really that destructive or shameful. That is because it's also no shameful for women to judge men on their socio-economic status and their ability to protect and provide. We aren't to blame that we are programmed this way biologically. However, what we can control is our response to this. Looking at women becomes toxic, when you start to build fantasies around this. When you begin to stare at them. When you ignore her signs of being uncomfortable with you staring at her. Or when she is not comfortable at all, but you still realize that the situation is toxic, but continue anyway. If you are honest with yourself and have developed an awareness about these situations, you will know when looking at women moves from healthy to unhealthy.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Going back to Kenzo's original question, I haven't asked my best mate now but we have had this sort of conversation in the past where I had been trying to work out if I was weird in how I looked at women. It became clear that he also looked at women but was fairly discrete in it. There were two main differences I noted between him (non-SA) and me (SA) in that he would be mortified if he felt in any way that she had spotted him looking as he would not wish to make her feel uncomfortable and he would get very embarrassed. For me this now tells me that making her feel uncomfortable in any way would conflict with his values as he is a genuinely nice person that wants everyone to think nicely of him. Pre-RN if I looked at a women and found them attractive I would inevitably hold the stare for longer than I should I suppose to send off a signal to them. Some men (probably SA myself included) maybe get a bit delusional that if you find them attractive then it must surely work the other way around too which in the cold light of day is complete nonsense. The other difference which I never understood is that he would prefer not to see them naked (assuming we're talking about a random person) as he would feel like he was intruding in their privacy. Me, on the other hand, wanted to see them naked and would think about that a lot. Again, it seems to come to a difference in him being attuned to his values and me blocking them out for selfish reasons at that time.

L2R

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