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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:37 am 
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I felt the need to answer to a post but then I thought these are my thoughts and my truth and maybe they are not accurate, therefore I would want some feedback.

My H had this sexual dream he cared to share ... one episode was him trying to sexually grab a woman while me being behind him, he kept trying to grab her despite me being there, anxious that I might see, but kept doing and kept looking/checking at his back.
I've kept thinking about it for some days now. The obvious "explanation" (yeah, I'm funny like that ... trying to make sense of a dream because I think it's our subconscious talking ....) is that he feels guilty for his acting out, that he projected me there out of a sense of guilt for being with another, for wanting or craving for another. I do not believe that is the case. What I've learnt about addiction is that it is not about sex or orgasm itself, but it's about power, excitement and danger. I believe his projection of me in his dream was not out of guilt but out of the need to recreate that excitement of the forbidden, of the illicit. I believe this is the very mechanism of his promiscuity. He cannot get that excitement when he is on his own, not in a committed relationship. It would be just the normal excitement that's the same for all the people starting new relationships (will she like me? will she want to get physical?) that soon wears off ... When he is with someone (me), then it becomes exciting, dangerous. I make it exciting or more accurately, the role I play. He needs me for his acting out. Without the sweating anxiety that he can get caught, without the sneaking behind my back, without feeding me lies and masturfully manipulating my perceptions ... it is not exciting for him. I am just a pawn on his chess table. I am not an innocent collateral victim, I'm a part of his ritual. Without me, his acting out is not possible or not as exciting as it can get. I see truth in this and it explains a lot. I do not take it personally ... it is not meant to harm me ... he just needed what I stand up for to draw the most stimulation ... Understanding this helps me stop playing his game. Nobody asked me if I want to play it and if I'm happy with my role. Understanding makes it easier for me to stop controlling him because ultimately, it will only make it even more exciting if he does choose to act out ... The more dangerous and difficult, the more he will get out of it, the more sense of achievement and satisfaction, the more manipulation he will feed me to keep playing his game.

This is my truth and it's newly found ... I'm not saying it's true about all other situations and people ... RN says it's not about us, partners, and I do repect that and I believe it is true in most of the cases ... however, strictly about promiscuity or even stricter, about my H's promiscuity, I do not believe it to be absolutely true ... with the distinction that it's not about me as a real person but it's about what I represent that's part of his ritual ... If anyone has another perspective, please do share ... it's greatly appreciated.

_________________
"A wholehearted attention feels like the nurturing presence that I always wished I had in a parent. Now I am free to be there for myself in a way that I assumed I needed from someone else." Tara Bennett-Goleman, Emotional Alchemy


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:06 pm 
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Partner's Coach

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:49 pm
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Your explanation is a possibility. Even if it were the case, it would still not be about you specifically, but the role that you play in his addiction. I do want to emphasize that it is only a possibility. The only one who could specify the role you play, both in the dream and in his reality, would be your (healthy) partner. We can make guesses, but we are not inside their heads. If you feel that he would be open to it, you might share this with him and have him give you his perspective on it. If he is sincerely trying to recover and this is the case, it might give him some insight into his behavior in the future. However, I would suggest that you not get too wrapped up in it. These are knots for him to untangle as he recovers.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
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Hello Ursula
Mrs J wrote
.
Quote:
However, I would suggest that you not get too wrapped up in it. These are knots for him to untangle as he recovers.

I totally support her viewpoint
in a relationship, or not, we are ultimately responsible to and for ourselves

others ( the partners)suffer the wrath of the consequence of the addicts actions ( addiction if you subscribe to it)
sorry but it really is a matter of choice
I suggest
that you strive continue on your journey

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:47 pm
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Mrs. Jones,
as always, you have this elegance of looking at things from different angles and putting things into perspective. It helps a lot. I'm relieved to see that it might be a bit of truth in my perceptions and judgement. I did share with H, he interprets it as guilt and shame, not as recreating the settings ... I think that bothered me a lot, hence my need to analyse it more as I did not perceived it to be the truth. In my humble opinion he minimises and justifies a lot of his actions and he always interprets things with the best possible scenario that would excuse him ... I do understand that he lacked/lacks self-awareness and because it was not conscious it is hard for him to accept how he was/is manipulating himself ultimately into believing it's not such a big deal ... he says I make it sound like he was aware and it was all an evil plot. But I've never thought about it like that ... it was never intentional or conscious ... therefore I do not take it personally ... I've also been in that state of not getting things so I know how he must feel and that if he progresses he will eventually get it and as you say, he will be able to tell me also what was going on with him. For now, in the absence of a better and more advised explanation, this is what I perceive to be part of the truth. We've had these days of him opening up and more confessions came out and it was painful for me to see how he has been playing with my mind for the last year, after Dday. We were "casually" talking about rape (if you can casually talk about such a thing) ... and he was pointing out he is not like that ... as in "better" than that ... His perception bothered me immensely ... I feel I've been raped emotionally ... repeatedly ... in the cruelest manner ever since we've met ... he was refering to the rape victim as being "powerless" ... that struck a cord with me ... I was also powerless, he incapacitated me with all the manipulation and lies and mind games ... and he is so good at it and he gets satisfaction out of it .... but he doesn't allow himself to see it, he cannot accept this truth about him ... and he refuses the piece of the mirror I'm offering ... But I am at peace. You are right and I know it as it happened to me as well: if there is any truth in my perceptions and if he makes it to health ... he will see it and the truth will guide him ... I will not let myself get caught in this again. I see all too well how things played out for the last year after Dday ... he spent all his energy controlling me and I spent all my energy controlling him ... lol ... now I finally begin to have a life independent of him ... I go for long periods not thinking about him then I remember and it feels strange to be free of all this drama ... It's like the little fly somehow got free from the spider's web for once. All this being said, I deeply care about my H. Apart from all the "not so good", I see so much genuine goodness and strength in him ... if only he would choose to go with those .... but it is his life and he must live it for himself, as I will live mine.

Coach Kenzo,
I know what you are saying ... my actions merely scratch his surface ... it is not about what I do though I can somewhat influence at least where his energy goes for the moment ... We've spent the last year in drama and it was robbing us both of the energy necessary in dealing with individual problems. We tried to patch things but they always cracked ... Coach Mel told me once when I was doubting my own perceptions about his acting out that hopefullly the day will come when my own skewed perceptions will be the only problem left to solve. I know what she meant ... she didnt want me to fall in wishful thinking about my H's progress but I see how I cannot wait in my own recovery/healing ... Understanding and accepting what happened ... what he has done to me and how I've let him do it ... is part of my path ... I do think I've forgiven him even though it is still painful ... I think I've forgiven him for the past as well as for the future (what he will ultimately choose to do). What I cannot accept is manipulation but here I take responsability for a big chunk of it ... not as in "I deserve it for being such a crazy b****" but as in it's my responsability to protect myself from ongoing abuse ... therefore there is much more to my decision to let go of control than what I explained in my post. I think my addictive need to control my environment is my own personal demon and I've been carrying it around on my back long before I met my H. Therefore, I'm not doing it for him, I'm doing it for me. Nowadays I'm doing things for myself ... I think I'm becoming the master of my own destiny :w:

_________________
"A wholehearted attention feels like the nurturing presence that I always wished I had in a parent. Now I am free to be there for myself in a way that I assumed I needed from someone else." Tara Bennett-Goleman, Emotional Alchemy


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
I agree with missjones in that what you're saying could be one possible explanation, but not getting too tied to "figuring it out". There may not be a single answer. What you said (about it being the excitement of the forbidden) could be partly right; what your partner said about it being due to guilt and shame could also be partly right. Both of these things can exist simultaneously; excitement and intensity can increase due to guilt and shame (which is actually one of the reasons that compulsive behaviour is so highly stimulating...because it contradicts one's true sense of self). When you're working with emotions and thoughts, these things can't be so easily categorized, so beyond what you've said here, I wouldn't worry about analyzing it anymore and instead focus on what can be done from here.

I'm not sure where your partner is in their recovery or how sincere they seem...but at least from my experience, having dreams like this can be a good thing, as it seems to be a way of indicating that your brain (particularly your subconscious) is working through these issues. So taking some time to analyze any dreams like this that obviously have some kind of meaning is definitely good...just ensure that you don't get too stuck on "getting it right", since there may be no "exactly right", if you know what I mean.

Quote:
What I've learnt about addiction is that it is not about sex or orgasm itself, but it's about power, excitement and danger.


This definitely can be true; to break it down even more basically, it's about emotional stimulation. Of course, it's also about identity, perception, choice...many larger issues. But at it's most basic level, addiction is a pattern developed to give people emotional stimulation in order to balance their emotions, which in turn makes their life feel balanced (temporarily).

Quote:
He cannot get that excitement when he is on his own, not in a committed relationship.


Yes, you're right on this, but this is in no way a "healthy" excitement; it is an excitement being sought in order to distract himself from or avoid uncomfortable emotional states, based on patterns of thought and emotion he's developed over years. So you shouldn't feel bad about not being able to provide such excitement; no one can or could. The problem exists in his head and therefore he must get over the need (or perceived need) for such intense unhealthy excitement if he hopes to overcome his addiction.

Quote:
I am not an innocent collateral victim, I'm a part of his ritual. Without me, his acting out is not possible or not as exciting as it can get....


This could definitely be the case, in terms of being an aspect in his rituals. However (and I'm making a couple assumptions in what I say here)...as you said in your post, your patterns regarding your need for control developed long before your partner was in your life. Your partner's likely very much be the same, since many of the core patterns of addiction develop in childhood/adolescence. So while your partner's rituals may have expanded to include you, it's likely that he developed the core of these patterns before meeting you...not much consolation there, I'm sure, but you can be assured that he was not being promiscuous because of you, even if you became an aspect in his ritual, but due to his own lack of life and emotional management skills. One thing I also tell partners is that even though addicts are indeed very manipulative and deceitful, their reasons for doing so almost always relate back to self-protection, rather than malice or a specific desire to manipulate you. Again, not any better, but it does help you see their actions for what they are and put them into a better context.

Quote:
In my humble opinion he minimises and justifies a lot of his actions and he always interprets things with the best possible scenario that would excuse him ...I do understand that he lacked/lacks self-awareness and because it was not conscious it is hard for him to accept how he was/is manipulating himself ultimately into believing it's not such a big deal ... he says I make it sound like he was aware and it was all an evil plot.


Once again, self-protection, and the latter part relates back to the addict's inability to realize that actions are actions, and have consequences, regardless of whether you lack self-awareness and "didn't mean to".

Quote:
Coach Mel told me once when I was doubting my own perceptions about his acting out that hopefullly the day will come when my own skewed perceptions will be the only problem left to solve.


A wise point. It's always easier (at least, in a way) to change your own behaviour in a sincere way rather than change others...despite the fact that a lot of society seems to think the other way around...

Quote:
I think my addictive need to control my environment is my own personal demon and I've been carrying it around on my back long before I met my H. Therefore, I'm not doing it for him, I'm doing it for me. Nowadays I'm doing things for myself ... I think I'm becoming the master of my own destiny.


Good for you. :g: Keep working at this, particularly your need to control your environment. My hint to you would be to look at times in your life where you felt out of control (and there may have been many)...as these are times where unhealthy thoughts and patterns of behaviours are most likely to ingrain themselves. As well, identify the situations where you are most likely to control your environment and explore beforehand what healthier responses you could take.

Hope that helps! :g:

Boundless

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:47 pm
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CoachBoundless,

Thank you so much for taking the time.
I hear you.

CoachBoundless wrote:
Keep working at this, particularly your need to control your environment. My hint to you would be to look at times in your life where you felt out of control (and there may have been many)...as these are times where unhealthy thoughts and patterns of behaviours are most likely to ingrain themselves. As well, identify the situations where you are most likely to control your environment and explore beforehand what healthier responses you could take.


I see how this is a problem of my ego, as probably any problems I create for myself. I've been reading a lot of stuff lately and I do see how I never loved in the true sense of the word. My love was ego boost, need to control, need to forge an identity through the other person, need to attach myself to my partner so I can be someone. Of course, him not being able to indulge the designated role creates tension within me ... because his very function was to make me feel good about myself, special in some way, to give me a purpose, energy, direction for my life. I have experienced some very interesting states of peace, fulfilment when I was totally in the preset moment, not thinking or dwelling on the past, not expecting anything from the future. This state is mainly induced by reading or really involving myself in the present and I can keep it for so long as something does not happen in my "real" world. Then I react with the unealthy patterns of resistance, anger, resentment and I fall out of that state of grace. But it's enough for me to know that there is something beyond all this and I have to keep going at it till I overcome. I do see how I identify myself with my past, what has happened to me, what he has done to me ... I am the victim, his victim in our relationship, that's my role ... there is so much suffering there ... but I have moments when I look at it without emotion, as looking at a movie and it's then when I find myself at peace, compassionate, wise, understanding, accepting. The moment I react emotionally all that goes away, I'm back in suffering. Control plays an immense part in it, as my ego is trying to hold on to my identity as his victim. As long as I want to control I will be the victim, over and over again. It's like a game and I'm addicted. I do see it and yet I do not know how to make it stop ... How to really accept while I still am someone with a past and hopefully a future. When I think about the past and the future, there is either the past reality of lack of control or probability of future lack of control over the events that will happen to me. I know it's ultimately an illusion, but my ego tells me it's real, I can do something about it, I can influence or at least react ... Therefore I really try to keep away from any decisions involving taking action ... just be in the present ... however, I'm still getting sucked in the future wondering where all this is going and what's the point ... I'm not very attached by earthly things, I'm perfectly capable of living inside ... probably mostly in my head but now trying to inhabit a deeper level than my mind... I'm just rambling on but it's hard to express how I feel ... I feel like I'm detaching but at the same time I feel guilty for doing it and with every possible trap I get sucked into it again ... my need to control is the most powerful hook ...
I do not know if it makes sense or not but ultimately I have a lead and I want to go on that path of true acceptance which implies a loss of ego as the story of what happened to me or what will happen to me. I have glimpses of that state. But it's so far ... For now I try to acknowledge the moments when my ego is talking too loudly and my need to control flashes and to own them. I hope this would bring me closer to where I want to be.
As for my H, he is just a human being like me. I perceive him as dangerous because his self-protection ultimately means my harm. But it can harm me only in as much as I still have hopes or expectations about his behaviour, thoughts or future. However, what I find to be very hard is to bear those moments when we seem to be two strangers, cut aways from each other or even worse, fostering anger and resentment. I "just" have this need to open up, share ... as with any other human being ... connect at a deeper level and he can't or he won't ... Ultimately it's not about what is being said, the content does not matter or matters little ... it's about the energy and the connection when we do open up ... that is priceless, brings peace and acceptance even if the sadness is there ... but it's not suffering and it's not thick, solid ... it's light, transparent ... This is how I usually relate to people, even strangers that are wiling to open up to... therefore I belive it goes well beyond him being my H ... it's how I relate to others... maybe there is some ego also in that ... but somehow it transcends it ... there is ultimately the joy of sharing your innermost energy ... feels like an expansion of some sort, I do not know if it's an expansion of my ego or an expansion of my being...
Anyways, all I want is not to get stuck in the games my mind and my ego play on me. This post came from that place. It's not necessarily good or bad, it's just what is and I do see it as such. Just that I want to remove myself from it. Not very sure how that will happen, if ever, but I need to readjust my perspective accordingly every time ... I guess self-awareness is key but it's not happening overnight and there are more levels to it.

Thank you so much ... I think your reply is beneficial to us both ... in different ways as it should be ...

_________________
"A wholehearted attention feels like the nurturing presence that I always wished I had in a parent. Now I am free to be there for myself in a way that I assumed I needed from someone else." Tara Bennett-Goleman, Emotional Alchemy


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