Recovery Nation

Personal Development Forum
It is currently Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:46 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:33 pm
Posts: 96
I need someone to tell me that I'm doing the right thing.

I found out a few days ago that my SA boyfriend booked a flight to visit an ex-girlfriend across the county (the trip got cancelled -- I think that was her choice), that he has been going out on dates, and that he has been corresponding with prostitutes...again.

All this time, he has been assuring me that he is "doing really well" in his recovery effort. My intuition told me otherwise. My intuition was right.

I truly love my boyfriend, but I have come to the conclusion that he is incapable of treating me with integrity, dignity, and respect. This relationship as it currently stands is not safe for me.

I told him that if he wants this relationship he needs to make it safe for me -- and if he isn't willing to do what is required, I will assume it is because he doesn't love me as much as he says he does and that he is not sincere about his recovery effort.

What would I need to make it safe? On-demand access to all his accounts and devices. Deleting all former sex partners from his contacts. Proof that he's off all the dating sites. And a lie detector test. To start.

I have never had a relationship like this and this all seems crazy to me, but it's been like this for 2 years post discovery and I have reached my breaking point.

I have tried to treat him like a normal human being. I am now treating him like an addict.

I really don't know what is going to happen here -- I doubt he'll agree -- so I think our relationship will be over.

If that happens, I know that I can't stay "friends" with him -- he has stayed friends with all of his old girlfriends -- but I refuse to do that to myself.

I know that I won't be able to stop hoping for recovery. And the more we stay connected, the harder it will be for me to move on with my life.

I cannot tell you how incredibly sad this all makes me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:42 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
Hi sp2007,

I'm sorry to hear about what you are dealing with. This is no doubt painful. What I would suggest for you here is a shift in your focus.

If you are 2 years post-discovery and your partner is still engaging in multiple deceits like this (with behaviour that obviously shows substantial planning), he has no interest in real recovery. He is literally at square one. This is important to acknowledge in terms of you deciding where to go from here.

Quote:
I told him that if he wants this relationship he needs to make it safe for me -- and if he isn't willing to do what is required, I will assume it is because he doesn't love me as much as he says he does and that he is not sincere about his recovery effort.


I can guarantee you this won't happen, because he is currently in a mindset that is incapable of considering you and your feelings. You are dealing with someone in active addiction, a selfish, immature, ignorant person. Could he still recover? Yes. But it would require some kind of personal epiphany; otherwise he will still be engaged in such behaviour for years, if not the rest of his life. The motivation must come from him, a motivation that he is evidently still far away from.

Why I say you need a shift in focus is this:

Quote:
What would I need to make it safe? On-demand access to all his accounts and devices. Deleting all former sex partners from his contacts. Proof that he's off all the dating sites. And a lie detector test. To start.


The problem here is that this keeps the focus on his behaviour. It asks for action from someone who is currently showing no interest in changing his actions. So by demanding these things from an immature active addict, in his current mindset, two things would likely happen:

a) he may do these things reactively to placate you and prevent you from leaving...yet increase the depth of his secrecy, or develop new behavioural patterns in other areas he can keep hidden;
b) even if he did these things, your mind would continue to wonder what else he might be hiding (and there could be other things); you then become obsessed with trying to find other instances of acting out in an attempt to "out him", thus using up more of your own time and continuing to damage your own values and life

This is why I suggest a shift in focus. In his mindset, your partner is going to continue doing what he's doing and there's very little you can do to stop him...so don't focus on it. Assume he is going to act out, and take steps to distance yourself from him emotionally. Re-shift the focus back to your own life, your own values, your own sense of self...and your own boundaries and consequences to protect yourself from his actions. This puts the control back in your hands, rather than asking someone to ensure your safety who is currently unwilling and incapable of doing so, and who you have no real reason to trust.

Quote:
I have tried to treat him like a normal human being. I am now treating him like an addict.


At this point, he is one. But ensure that you never fall into the idea that he can't control himself because of it. The behaviours he's engaging in (like planning entire trips) require several stages of planning and deceit. That is not just someone who is struggling to stop looking at porn. So treat him as you would any boyfriend you discovered engaging in these behaviours, whether addicted or not, in terms of enacting consequences.

You have some tough decisions to make. You can continue to hope for his recovery...but being 2 years into this, realize that another 2 years down the road (or 10 years)...you still could be hoping and he could be no farther forward, or he could be even worse. And your life could be further damaged through continued efforts to try to get him to change.

I leave you with a post by CoachJon that I will believe will be helpful, since you're at the point where this question is in your mind.

Quote:
Knowing When To End the Relationship

I share this with much trepidation. The last thing I want is for even a single couple to “give up” on a relationship before that becomes the only healthy option left. And so, I will share some thoughts here and trust that each of you will put it into its proper perspective. But I’m telling you, if there is suddenly a mass exodus of people leaving their marriages/relationships, I’m never pushing the limits again!

First (and I say this openly): if I would have discovered my own addiction a few years before I did, and knew then what I know now about the recovery process I had to work through, I would have asked my first wife to leave me. No doubt. It is almost inhuman what she would have had to endure as I struggled to rebuild my life. Granted, if we had years and years of love and memories to keep us grounded through that process, who knows. It may have been worth the pain. But since our marriage was based on my addiction, and because I had not the first clue of what partnership, intimacy, love, etc. was really all about—I would have told her to run and not look back. At least, not until I had regained my identity some two and a half years later.

Ironically, it would have been best for me as well, as I have little doubt that had I tried to work through my recovery while married to her, it would have only taken one slip here or there to completely derail my progress. The crises that would have undoubtedly occurred as I struggled to learn about true honesty and communication would have done to us what it is doing to many of you: creating “necessary” crises, but crises nonetheless.

I didn’t have to deal with this because my wife never knew of my addiction. And so, those two and a half years I spent were years where I was accountable only to myself. And slips were met with frustration and intensity—but a rapid and direct recommitment to change.

I say all of this because some people in recovery perceive me as being different because I now know what I know. But I didn’t know it then. Back then, I was just as awkward and fumbling through my recovery as most are now. I also share this because some take on the belief that I am “destroying their marriage and/or encouraging divorce” and nothing can be further from the truth. I believe that any couple—where both are aware of the addiction and both are sincere in working through it—can not only overcome their past, but flourish as a result. Because of that addiction, the opportunity to grow closer and experience more depth as a couple is possible. Just as some who experience near-death experiences come to appreciate life with a depth that is rarely achieved otherwise. But, I also know that it takes both. One person committed just isn’t enough.

So, when is it time to “move on”? There is no easy answer and no definitive answer for all. Even in situations where those with the addiction have no true desire to end that addiction, other considerations must be involved in making the decision to end the relationship. Other values. Other goals. It is entirely possible that as a partner, you will derive more meaning from life through maintaining an intact family, home, appearance, etc., or from taking care of your kids or your career than you will from your marriage. Nobody but you can say whether or not this is the case for your life. Other people may see you as settling, but that is irrelevant. It is your values that you must work with and utilize to determine your actions and decisions.

Is it enough for you to end a marriage based on your partner’s refusal or inability to overcome their addiction? There is no answer to this—save for the answer that you determine for your own life.

Let’s also look at this from the opposite angle. Let’s say you have a partner who has gone through a healthy recovery and who is sincere about ending their addiction—but who even beyond this addiction lacks the interpersonal skills (communication, vulnerability, transparency, connection) that you seek in your life’s partner, and who you realize may never achieve the depth in such values that you desire. Yet your top goals revolve around more intrinsic needs like intimacy and partnership. And so, is it enough to end the relationship because of those shortcomings when he has worked so hard to end his addiction? Only you can answer this.

Should you be impacted by the fact that others may look at your decision and judge that you were the one who gave up? That you were unreasonable? Of course not. You are the only one who knows what is truly important in your life.

And so, we return to the fundamental question, “When is it time to move on?”

The answer? I don’t know. But here are some major considerations to process:

● Is continuing on in this relationship having an ongoing, detrimental effect on your value system? Is it further breaking you down?

● Are you continuing on in the relationship because you sincerely want to overcome this crisis and move forward with this man (or woman)? Or are you continuing on so you can say to yourself (and others), “I did all that I could do?” with the anticipation of an inevitable breakup?

● What do you sincerely believe inside: that your partner will change or that they won’t?

● When you think of “life after this relationship,” is there a sense of fear or a sense of freedom (or both)? If it is fear—is it fear for what will happen to him/her? To you? Or both?

Finally (and the real purpose of this section):

Once you have made the decision that it is time to end the relationship, do something extraordinary. Do the following:

1. Recognize that you (and the relationship) have nothing left to lose—that you are free now to make yourself vulnerable to him (or her).

2. Develop a plan for what your needs are and how they are to be met. Include in this plan your partner’s expected role for meeting those needs. Make sure you have a clear vision for each of these expectations.

3. Tell your partner that you have made the decision to end the marriage/partnership, move on with your life without them, etc. Explain to him that you have sustained too much damage to your life and that you need to rebuild a life that is safe, nurturing, and intimate.

4. Offer him the opportunity of taking the next month to pursue this with you. If he declines, so be it. If he accepts, do the following:

5. Work as a team. For you, that means tearing down all of your guards and making yourself vulnerable to him. Actively pursue the meeting of your needs not as a chore, or as a task where you are directing his behavior. Pursue this as a moment of opportunity where you are both working together as equals; an opportunity to rebuild a friendship that can be sustained whether the marriage ends or not; an opportunity to humanize each other again.

6. Ignore his addiction/recovery efforts (for now). Ignore his past (for now). For you, this means that the focus is on meeting your needs (including the need to take care of your family, etc.). This is not a selfish time for you, but a time when the primary focus of energy moves from him to you. For him, this means that he must manage his own recovery and take responsibility for his own recovery. If he chooses not to, so be it.

7. Offer realistic, supportive feedback. For you, this means offering non-confrontational feedback. You are “teaching him” about you. If he does something that irritates you—say, you notice him ogling a waitress when you are at lunch together—rather than explode in anger, simply address it in a way like, “You see, that is what I can’t have in my life anymore. Things like that. I need to have a partner who will respect me. Who actually wants to remain engaged with me.” And then let it be. Pay little attention to any rationalizations, justifications, or apologies he may offer. This is you teaching him about you.

8. At the end of that month (or earlier if he becomes uncooperative), assess the closeness that has developed. If that assessment concludes with your determination that this is not someone you want to invest any more time in—then it is indeed time to move on. With your head held high. You will have validated your decision to end the relationship.

The bottom line is this: try not to make these life decisions based on emotions or crisis. And, once you have made the decision (with a marriage anyways), take that last step. Set aside all of the crisis (temporarily) and just see if you can form a connection to the good in each other once more. Remember, you have nothing left to lose at this point—save for one more month of your life, but even then, you won’t be losing that effort. You have already made the decision to end the relationship and so, giving yourself this last thirty days of having the opportunity to engage in openness and teamwork will allow you to begin seeing yourself and your role in relationships in a whole new light. And that is the worst-case scenario. So it won’t be a waste.

Exceptions:

The only exceptions I can see to this approach would be:

1) If you are unable to set aside feelings of hatred, repulsiveness, or other extreme emotions you may feel toward your partner. These feelings would no doubt interfere with developing a “humaneness” towards each other.

2) If your partner openly refuses to work on his recovery or even admit that he has an addiction.

The rationale for all of this? You don’t want to divorce the addiction—you want to divorce the man behind the addiction. Sometimes, this requires setting aside that addiction and regaining a connection to that man. And again, as a reminder, this is only suggested for those who have already made the decision to end the marriage/partnership. It is not for those who are uncertain and/or very early in the discovery process.


I wish you well in whatever choices you make. Stay strong.

Boundless

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:33 pm
Posts: 96
Thank you so much for your response. It was very helpful, especially coming from the recovery side of the house. I know that I need to get out. I just don't know how to leave. Having a conversation seems pointless. Maybe I can just fade away.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:14 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3834
Quote:
Having a conversation seems pointless. Maybe I can just fade away.

Fade away? NO. Leaving is about making a conscious choice and not looking back and second guessing yourself. Keep doing the lessons. Put your focus on yourself and the vision you have for your life whether he's in it or not. Prioritize your values, and begin making a plan or mini vision for leaving. In other words, get your ducks in a row.

Your life, health, and healing do not depend on him. If you know that you need to get out, build on that insight step by step. Take charge of your life.

Nellie James


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:33 pm
Posts: 96
I posted this a month ago. I am stuck. I know I can't continue on like this. And yet, I can't seem to end it, as much as I am trying to do so. I can't tell you how many hours I have wasted writing goodbye letters that I never send.

Perhaps the problem is that my values are in conflict. On the one hand, I value respect -- I try to treat others fairly and honestly and I expect the same in return. His behavior clearly conflicts with that and is completely unacceptable to me.

On the other hand, I value compassion and devotion -- I try to empathize with and stick by people who are struggling. I believe in the basic "good" in people. That's where I get confused because I really can't tell whether his struggle is genuine. I feel like I just can't tell what is real anymore.

For the most part, I see a person who is completely overwhelmed with his life, who is tortured and unhappy and full of shame. I also see a person who has tried to control his behavior -- why else would he spend years and thousands on therapy? -- and yet the fact remains that he has failed miserably to do so.

Do I just not understand addiction? Or is this all just an elaborate manipulation to make me feel sorry for him and stay with him for whatever reason? Does he actually want to get better -- or is he just a "bad" person who gets off on hurting others?

My therapist tells me that it doesn't matter because the end result is the same. The problem is...it matters to me because of my value system.

For what it is worth, I did speak to him about the latest episode -- the secret plans to visit his ex-girlfriend, the dates, the conversations with escorts, etc. He maintains that because he didn't follow through (in the case of visiting his ex-girlfriend) or because nothing actually happened (in the case of the dates and conversations with escorts) -- having sex with others is apparently his bottom line -- he did nothing wrong.

Of course I know that is an attempt to rationalize his behavior, but I wonder is this what Coach Jon meant when he referred to early recovery? Or is he, as Coach Boundless indicated, literally at square one?

How do I sort this out in my head so I can feel like I'm making a decision that doesn't conflict with my value system? If I focus on the fact that he is sick -- as they indicate in my 12 step meeting -- can I set a boundary to protect myself while also staying true to my value system?

What a cluster.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:01 pm 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3834
:g: Great insight.You can build on this - prioritize and clearly define each value as it fits you personally.
Quote:
Perhaps the problem is that my values are in conflict.

Quote:
I value respect -- I try to treat others fairly and honestly and I expect the same in return
. When his behavior clearly conflicts with this, what consequences do you enforce? Boundaries are useless unless you enforce them. He needs to learn that you value yourself. That is key for both of you.
Quote:
I value compassion and devotion
Quote:
I believe in the basic "good" in people.

These are both good values. Nonetheless, you are dealing with an SA. His thinking is skewed and he may, indeed, be struggling. That doesn't mean that he isn't a good person. We often confuse a healthy lifestyle with whether a person is good or bad. Struggling with an addiction doesn't make you a bad person. Nonetheless, he needs to accept that you have values that you are willing to protect with boundaries and consequences even in the face of his struggle. Part of his healing is learning this.
Quote:
That's where I get confused because I really can't tell whether his struggle is genuine. I feel like I just can't tell what is real anymore.
Learn to trust your gut - it tells the truth. Believe what he does, not what he says.

Hope this helps.
Nellie James


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:17 pm 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 661
sp2007, I am so, so very sorry about the pain and confusion you are going through. I empathize with the value conflict you state so eloquently.

In addition to the RN lessons and forum, my individual therapy has been tremendously helpful to me. It took me three tries to get the right kind of therapist, but now I have. The focus of my therapy is on me and me alone. (Technically, it's based on Internal Family Systems, and I was skeptical at first, but for me it is really working.) There is no negative judgement of me, just compassion. I am figuring out how my early childhood trauma contributed to my choosing my husband to marry; staying in an abusive relationship; being in denial about the relationship for so long; and even failing to recognize the abuse as it was happening. I am developing a strong sense of myself and a real compassion for myself. Why I am saying this is because I think that you may want to apply your values of compassion, devotion and respect TO YOURSELF. I am doing this with my values and along with improving my detachment from my husband's addiction, I feel so much calmer, so much more caring about myself, and so much more forgiving of myself. I have to ask myself if I am treating ME as well as I am treating my partner. And, the answer for a long, long time was that I was putting my marriage and my partner above myself due to my belief in what I wanted and envisioned out of a marriage, but in reality did not have. I am not at a point that my therapy has given me the answer to "should I stay or go." But, it is making me stronger and more loving of myself.

And, I really do believe that Jon gave us such crucial advice to watch our partner's actions and not their words. Are they behaving in a more mature and healthy way in other parts of their lives? Any meaningful conversations? Any attempt to correct or clarify words that come out of their mouth? Any personal responsibility? I can't judge my husband's sincerity and I can't put trust jn his words. I MUST watch his actions. In my case, he is different. In some ways he seems more mature. He seems committed to his recovery effort. He says he is committed to not just abstinence but health, and that is going to take some time. It is clear to me this journey of his is going to take quite a bit of time, and more than he thinks (immediate gratification being expressed around this issue).

But, more important, frankly, is my journey. Will I have enough to sustain me (in terms of my values and priorities around honesty, true intimacy, true partnership) during our respective journeys? Can I find a vision for my life during this period of "waiting and seeing" if my husband can reach health? I do not know the answers to these question, but I do know that putting MY forgiveness, love, compassion and respect for me first is essential for me to live my life.

With compassion and support,
dnell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:33 pm
Posts: 96
Thank you both for your replies.

I've always struggled with the concept of boundaries and consequences. In theory I understand, and I've had no trouble with them in my day to day life, but figuring out how to apply them in this situation has been difficult.

I guess it's because I've always felt that the only appropriate consequence for behavior that so blatantly violates my value system would be me to cut off all contact with him completely. And I just haven't been able to do that...yet.

I'm certainly open to other ideas and would love to hear suggestions/examples from others.

I did tell him that if he is unwilling to provide me with proof that he is off of dating sites that I will start dating. To be honest, I don't really want to date others -- after this, who would want to? But I feel like there is an inherent unfairness in his behavior that is unacceptable to me and that does not align with my values. However, I'm not sure if that's really a boundary and a consequence?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:18 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:38 pm
Posts: 515
Hi sp2007,

It took me a very long time to both be comfortable with boundaries and consequences and view them, internally, from the stance of protecting and respecting myself. Like you, objectively I felt the only reasonable consequence to someone disrespecting my values so blatantly was leaving, period, and in this belief, I trapped myself, for I, too, was (am) not quite ready to throw in the towel.

There came a tipping point where my husband's choices and behavior was so harmful and disrespectful of me (even with the capacity to separate him from his addiction) that things clicked, and I moved into self preservation mode.

Simply put, I no longer wished to align myself, daily, so much to him, that I left one day while he was out, fully prepared to fly on a plane back to my home, and expecting him to say good riddance.

He did not. My action woke him up (important note: waking him up was NOT my intent behind this choice) and now we're trying to work through recovery.

My choice opened up options for me. For example, some of the consequences I have worked out, for ME, include:
-leaving on my own for an entire day, including meals. To distance myself from him.
-sleeping in a separate bedroom for 1 night. More nights if the behavior escalates or the violation is big.
-moving in with my mother for a week or more as necessary
-heading out of town as necessary

All these consequences help me detach, and give me much-needed space away from the potential manipulative or destructive energy of my husband.

Each of the above options is available for me to apply depending on the boundary violation. For example, if my husband questions, ridicules, scorns or verbally disrespects my values and boundaries (including minimizing statements like "all men do this") I will stay away from him all day long, eat by myself or with friends, and possibly sleep in the other room if i feel I need more time and space.

See how my boundary there also involves me respecting my own values and not tolerating any attacks on them? This spares me verbal warfare (illogical, maddening debates) with him and makes it clear to him, and more critically, me, that my values are of worth. That I will respect myself and detach from a person who thinks my values are negotiable, silly, or unreasonable.

Your consequences might even include internal actions. Perhaps smaller violations mean you will make a mental or journal note of the behavior, opt to not confront it (because perhaps you don't feel strong enough to, and that's ok. It's really ok) and will focus on yourself for the night.

If you don't want to date someone else, don't. Make choices that uphold your values.

You might say to him "until I fully believe you are not on dating sites and have shown to me, through actions, that our relationship is your only romantic and sexual focus, I will only see you for dates 1x (or whatever) per week." If you live with him, you might adjust that to sleeping in another room, or eating meals alone.

The point of that is to help you detach in a way that's more comfortable for you, help you feel empowered with options, and give you space away from his addiction to make more objective and values-based decisions. Yes, it hurts. It hurts to distance yourself from your partner, which is why small steps that build up may help you make this transition.

You are worthy of these measures. I believe in you. Although it's difficult, I, and others here, stand with you in empathy and care.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ugh...both sides
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:58 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3834
Hi sp2007,
In reading back through your lessons thread, I see that you are still early in your own healing. My best recommendation is to continue with the lessons to learn more about this kind of addiction so you can stop reacting to your boyfriend's behavior which is keeping you on an emotional rollercoaster. He is an active SA and will continue until he reaches the point where he wants to become healthy for himself only. Recovery like healing has to be a somewhat selfish commitment and process. You and he have to love yourself first and truly want to live a life based on healthy values.

You already recognize his general patterns enough to know that he is not in a sincere recovery mode. There is nothing you can do or say to change this. Lie detector tests, proof of not dating, etc. do not provide any kind of security. The active SA will and can always find a way. I know this is hard to hear but can't expect any security or truth from him. None. Your job and only responsibility is you. Take another look at your vision and revise, refine, add and subtract as you see the need. Be very specific about the elements and activities you include and begin to calendar them in so you actively start living the life you want for yourself whether your BF is part of it or not. Your vision is a kind of roadmap for you to follow and live day to day. It's not set in stone. As you grow and evolve, your vision will, too.

As Coach Boundless wisely told you, you need to change your focus from his behavior to your own healing. The lessons are carefully laid out to help you get there. It's a continuum of learning and self discovery which eventually includes lessons on values, boundaries, and consequences which are key tool for you as you learn how to use them - takes practice, practice, practice. It's all hard work but so worth it. And jumping ahead in the lessons hoping to find the magic bullet doesn't work. !D Your healing will be a process unique to you. There will be lightbulb moments along the way and the pieces of the puzzle (your puzzle) fall into place with personal insights that you can build on.

Try to find a comfortable momentum for doing the lessons taking time to digest what you are learning. A steady pace is best, but it is not a race. And please give yourself the gift of patience in your process. :w:

Hope this helps,
Nellie James


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group