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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:59 pm 
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I have been doing as well as can be expected recently - actually very well and now I am focused on my own recovery foremost, living separately from my H who is doing a lot of early recovery stuff, I have discovered a new reality..

I made the mistake myself of going on a dating site soon after he left home. As D Day had been nine months before with the turmoil that goes with the ongoing intolerable situation, I felt I needed an 'ego boost' and after months, no years, of feeling sexually undesirable, was clearly reaching out for attention. This in itself is ironic given that my H was on hook up apps, but as this was a legitimate dating site and I even stated on my profile that I 'wanted an ego boost, to chat and flirt' I felt it was okay. (A lesson learned!!)

Looking back it was a reactionary situation, I perhaps also wanted to experience what 'the other women' would have experienced with my H being the instigator. Anyway it was a awful experience and merely demonstrated the desperation and fantasy of 'people who are single for good reason' besides many were clearly married or in a relationship so I deleted it altogether, not really feeling any better, only thinking how weak and desperate some men can be.

The downside is that a guy I exchanged maybe three banal paragraphs with, showed my profile pictures to an old manager of mine who I still communicate with. Suffice it to say, this sick individual made allegations regarding a 'relationship of a sexual nature' with me, also lying that I sent these pictures to him personally. Not true, they were just my profile pics fully clothed etc.

Totally untrue, I pleaded my innocence to my manager explaining the truth that this unsavoury person once I made it clear I did not wish to meet up with him and was only looking to chat (hence the fact that I disclosed in one of the banal opening chats worked with CH) chose to slander me and basically make up a horrible story about me.

My manager (unconvinced - clearly I am now the same as the other people that frequent these sites) just told me to be careful - he is not a nice guy (No Kidding!!) and to steer clear...This then led to me feeling that I had to further justify my reasons for going on there, that I was estranged from my H due to sex addiction and that I just wanted to have a little of that attention for myself so sorely lacking for such a long time... and then the pity.. :t:

Well.... the outcome resulted in me having quite a heated discussion with my estranged H. :no:

Disgusted as I was, about the downright tawdriness of that dating scene - I naturally turned to his experience on similar sites. I asked again (even though I thought I was done with asking - but this brought up fresh pain for me) What was the appeal? Did you treat innocent, vulnerable women like me like that?!!

However, he instead chose to minimise the situation, as usual. I thought we were beyond that!

I was angry now. I need transparency and details that are honest, not more lies and a playing down of behaviours that hurt people. It escalated.. Months of minimising brought to a new head..If a legitimate site harboured such horrible slime balls, what about the really bad stuff my H used to frequent!! I also hated to think of him in that way too - as a sleazy, predatory, distorting reality and using women.

I asked him about craigslist "why did you actually go on there? What was your motivation"?

He just calmly said - "everyone knows about Craigslist..."

Sorry am I overreacting?? Is that even an answer?

I told him that an honest answer would be specific to him and his experience not the general population. He said I was trying to put words in his mouth, what was the point? I never believed him anyway.. Yawn.. :ni:

I replied an authentic MATURE answer would be "I went on Craigslist specifically to seek out....."

Not a generic answer that means I fill in the gaps with my own imagination and his previous behaviour and evidence and what I have now experiences by default through going on a site!

It turned into an argument in which I was cross with myself for even going there in the first place. But then it hit me. I WAS NEVER allowed to ask 'probing' questions. I was shot down, lied to or given minimised responses.

Thanks to his defensive behaviour I am now only insisting that these be given. I explained to him how important it is for me to heal too, if we have any chance of a future. Tried to explain that, yes, while he is doing very well now, I still need help to express and state what I need to say or ask, in the context of moving forward, that I am okay to hear the real reasons however dark.

So - although I have partly detached from the situation, I have clearly not detached from the emotions!

This is due to not feeling that I matter, that I have a say, a need to seek truth rather than play detective, that it was okay to be lied to and it was okay for him to do things because of his addiction.

Outcome
I have explained calmly, that should I feel the need to work through the stage of understanding the truth and ask questions in a mature conversation, to build trust and understand his motivation to get well, to make me feel more secure, Then I should be allowed and respected to ask and get a specific and clear response. NOT a minimised generic "everyone knows about Craigslist" vapid answer. That I will not tolerate this, that he can lie to me, but not himself.

He thought about this and then said - " I went on craigslist to see the sort of dirty women that are up for sex chat"

He then said he has gone from feeling good to now feeling depressed - boo hoo, welcome to my world....

I told him I demand total honesty to build trust. If I feel issues are getting minimised, I will back off and wait until it can be discussed honestly.

Please forum users - did I do the right thing? could I have handled this better? Practical tips on how to build honesty and the reasons why minimising behaviour even occurs in early recovery?

Thanks in advance :t:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
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hello time traveler
I note that as yet no one has responded to this topic
so I will
I suspect that many see your post as a rant and a guilt trip
that is OK

so
Quote:
the reasons why minimising behaviour even occurs in early recovery?

from my own experience
I know that addicts lie, we deny that we have a problem, we believe that we are in control and can stop acting out "after just one last time"
we deny that we are hurting those that we love and ourselves
we believe that we are "not that bad, others are so much worse"
we minimise to protect ourselves and our addiction
and then - hopefully we realise reality and grow
from the partner prospective
I do not know but suspect that the "it must be about me and my faults " syndrome plays a part
believe me the fault , the blame and the guilt lies only with the addict

not sure if this gives you what you seek but at least it might provoke thought?

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:47 pm 
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Partner's Coach (Admin)

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:07 pm
Posts: 5200
Hi toffeetimetravellor

Re:

Please forum users - did I do the right thing? could I have handled this better? Practical tips on how to build honesty and the reasons why minimising behaviour even occurs in early recovery?


First, no one can tell you if you did the right thing. What do your values tell you? (This is a rhetoric question, and one that can only be answered with a little distance from the situation).

Could you have handled it “better”? IF the assumption that “better” equals healthier, and if we are talking of an ideal situation, then yes. But it is clear that the situation was not ideal. You were coming down from your own negative experience, probably feeling angry or even ashamed of yourself, and you turned your anger toward your partner. There is nothing to be ashamed of, btw. It was an automatic reaction in the context of a very overwhelming situation. The facts are: You went on a dating site for reasons that violated you values, and you had a bad experience. You used your experience to try to start a conversation with your partner, to gain insight into his experience. This may or may not have been done with the intention of making him wrong or as a means of trying to punish him. Maybe you hoped this would be a catalyst for honest conversation (thinking, now that you have done “something wrong”, he may now relate to you and feel safer to share honestly). When he wasn’t honest, you reacted by demanding. These are the facts of what happened. Whether there is a right or wrong in what happened depends on how these events filter through your values (or, more importantly, how your own behaviour in these events filter through your values). You can only build honesty within yourself. You cannot control whether or not he does the same.

Re: “I told him I demand total honesty to build trust. If I feel issues are getting minimised, I will back off and wait until it can be discussed honestly.”

This is a good boundary. If you are interested in digging deeper, I would like to suggest that—while total honesty will naturally build trust—the reason you demand honesty is for your own self-protection. Anecdote: I recently had a self-revelation regarding similarly controlling behaviour. Actually, my own behaviour would include demanding, pushing, prodding, “enlightening” my husband (on various topics, often related to SA, porn, and other “unhealthy” things) and even devaluing him (in a variety of ways, but foremost in not accepting him as he was/is, and not accepting his love, however immature it was which was a form of devaluing him as a human being). Often I believed these behaviours were performed in the context of “setting boundaries” or “honouring my values” (and, they often were). But, they were also driven by an unconscious desire to control my own environment, to feel safe, to feel protected. What was I protecting myself from? From the fear that maybe I wasn’t worth his effort. The only reason I know this now is because I had a breakthrough in seeing myself in the relationship. I knew (and know) that his behaviour didn’t mean anything about me. I knew it intellectually, and I knew it experientially in that I loved myself and saw myself as worthy of love. But, as with most things, there are multiple layers. The way in which I didn’t see it, that I do now, is that I made it mean that he didn’t love me. I dismissed his capability of loving as immature and selfish (which, it was) but beyond that, I devalued his love. I didn’t believe he loved me because he wouldn’t, couldn’t or didn’t love me in the way I wanted him to love me. I didn’t accept him. I guess, in some way, I was still operating as “the healthy one”. While the truth is that I was healthier than him, what was not in alignment with my values and was completely beyond my awareness, was my attitude (i.e. that “healthier”) in this way, meant “better” and more worthy of a human being.

I think I went off on a tangent, here. But I am now only making some connections to what Coach Jon said to me a long time ago, the words which elude me now, but the meaning is registering as it never has before. “It depends”. The implication here is that there is no right or wrong, only what is right or wrong for you. This is both true, and false. True because it really is true—noone can tell you what to value, and when you take action from your values and in alignment with your values, you will always be doing what is right for you. False, because we can deceive ourselves into thinking that what is right for you is truly what is right in an absolute sense. All this serves is an all-or-nothing categorization of based on perceptions of originating events that are mostly happenstance or arbitrary, born of random events. Our all-or-nothing perceptions become habits that eventually become ingrained and automatized, and are reactivated in specific contexts. What there is to do is bring awareness to everything you do. Be mindful. Be intentional. Shine light on that which is dark to you. Be willing to be wrong. Consider other interpretations, perspectives, and possibilities. Think of other ways in which something could be interpreted, and “try it on”. And, cut yourself some slack. We don’t know what we don’t know. If we knew, we’d act accordingly.

That said, what Coach Kenzo has said is true. A person with addiction will lie (etc.) to protect their environment. Consider that you and I are no different. Whatever that means will not be the same for every person. We are all coming from different (albeit similar) circumstances, with different life experiences, and different attitudes, beliefs and values.

Be well.

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:06 am 
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I received a pm from a partner who shall remain anonymous. My recent post caused some inner turmoil, and I completely understand how it could. So, I am sharing my response here, which will hopefully shed some light.

I hear your confusion with respect to my recent posts, and I apologize. Never doubt yourself. Even though I now see that I was protecting myself in an unconscious way, this does not mean that it was wrong; it just led to something I would not have chosen had I had the self-awareness. I made the choices I made given the information I had at the time, given where I was in terms of my own growth and development, and given premature cognitive commitments, i.e. biases in thinking—I already “knew” that my husbands actions meant he didn’t love me enough, which is not the truth, just my perception of the truth. The truth is he loved me in the only way he knew how to love me, which was based on his own perceptions and biases. I wasn’t open to the possibility that he could love me.

None of this is to say that he didn’t have choice in the matter, or that he didn’t do things that violated boundaries. He absolutely did. But, I believe, that he didn’t do them from the place of true choice as in he didn’t have all the insight into his options to consciously choose to violate my values. He was acting on autopilot in much the same way I did. I was the “healthy one” and I had all the answers. He gladly followed, because it meant that he didn’t have to do the difficult work of uncovering his own skewed perceptions. I gladly led because it allowed me to avoid doing the work of uncovering my skewed perceptions. It allowed me to be right. It allowed me to protect myself through being right.

Regarding self-protection, it is not wrong to protect yourself. It is wise. But the lesson I recently learned is that protecting myself and my values as driven by my unconscious fear of not being wanted/loved is not really protecting myself. In fact, I ended up violating more important values in so doing. When we consider where the fear of not being wanted or loved comes from, which is a basic human need for connection, that I pushed my husband away in an effort to protect that value is skewed. Further, I diminished and devalued him as a person, which is a violation of my value for autonomy, treating others as I wish to be treated, mutual respect, etc. And, I traded my best friend, my life partner, my family, and everything else these values touched in order to protect myself, to prove to myself that I am worthy, to be “strong”. I was all-or-nothing in protecting my values.

This is not to say that I should not have protected my values. I did the best I could given my understanding of myself, of my situation, and my ability to cope within the context of a defective relationship. It was an unhealthy relationship, and I blamed him entirely for this. Even though I could see that I had things from my past that made me value what I value, I wore my values as a badge of honour and as shield and refused to see the unconscious that was underneath. I refused to see the cost that taking such a strong stand meant. This brings new meaning to the cliche “what you resist, persists”. As long as I resisted seeing myself in this way, the problems that were in our relationship as a result of my seeing myself in this way, would persist. This does not absolve him of his part. It just clarifies mine. And, the part that I didn’t say in any of my posts is that none of this means that anything would have turned out differently. Seeing myself in the relationship as I now see myself does not mean that my husband would have given up porn, or lying to cover up his use of it, or denying that it has a real impact in our life or on him. But, seeing myself in the relationship allows me to be honest with myself, it allows me to peel away the anger that served to protect me from being vulnerable and that perpetuated my “being right”. It allows me the freedom of protecting my values from the place of honouring my values instead of wearing them like a badge or shield. The consequence of protecting myself from a place of automatic self-preservation is that it cut me off from a lot of other values, including connection and intimacy (that I accused him of singly-handedly eroding). To be clear, his behaviours did erode these, but my interpretations and reactions to his actions compounded the erosion. Another consequence was that it barred me from compassion. The extent of this was that when I read about partners who were compassionate, I would first have a glimpse of sadness at not being so, and then I would quickly cover it up with being right, being strong. I unconsciously dismissed the compassion of others as naive. I didn’t allow space for compassion, even though I knew I wished I had it. I decided that I wanted compassion for strangers who were in tough circumstances, like homeless or mentally ill, but I refused to acknowledge that compassion was something that I was not allowing in my relationship. My dismissal happened so automatically, so quickly. I was too busy being right.

To answer your question, self-protection absolutely can come from strength. In my case it was not (although I unequivocally believed it was) because it was driven by unconscious self-preservation. The catch 22, and as a reminder to myself to be gentle with myself for this blindness, is that we can never know what is in our unconscious until we become conscious to it. With that, the control that unconscious self-protection tries to secure (as self-protection is a form of trying to control one’s environment) can never be achieved. With that, it is not wrong to protect your values, to give a voice to your concerns, to take action to align yourself with your values and vision, to remove yourself from unhealthy situations. Since you can’t know if protecting one’s values is an act of unconscious self-preservation until you become conscious to it’s being so (i.e. if it is in fact unconscious, which is not necessarily the case) then the only thing “wrong” with it is if the very fact of protecting your values violates more values than it serves. This was the case for me. There was so much of value in my relationship that extended to many areas of my life, but I cut myself off from it all just so I could protect myself from my fear of being “not wanted”. Again, this is not to say that if I hadn’t cut myself off that things would have been any different.

I hope this clarifies this issue for you. I am going to post my response to one of the recent posts that inspired your questions, because your concerns are valid and I think that others could benefit from this further explanation. What there is to remember is that we are all in different stages of our processes. We all have different values. We all have different experiences that have contributed to those values and to who we are as individuals. I cannot say that my personal revelation is right for anyone else. That you were unsettled by it indicates that there is something more for you to explore and possibly uncover for yourself. This is a good thing. I admire your self-inquiry. Thank you for having the courage to ask for clarity.
...
Be well

_________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. (Viktor E. Frankl)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:51 am 
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Coach Mel and Toffeetimetravellor - I apologize in advance if my post is hijacking this thread, which is not my intention.

I appreciate all of your candid posts, Coach Mel. It shines a light on many of the questions that I struggle with at this time. I think it is a unversal truth that we, as humans, want and NEED connection. Emotional connection. Emotional intimacy. I think we need this more than sex. But, sex is important as is erotic love that turns into mature love. When we are confronted with the trauma of the discovery of our partner's SA, and let us not underestimate the trauma, it calls into question so many things. I was wrapped around the axle of "did my husband really love me" for a long time. I think, somehow, if I felt if he did then maybe it eased the trauma and betrayal. But, given how I feel right now, it doesn't ease the betrayal at all. Is it better or worse that they betrayed us if they truly loved us? I can argue the answer both ways.

Will we ever know if our partners really love/loved us? Do they really know? Do they experience love the way we do? I know my husband doesn't love himself, and I bet most of our partners are the same way (unless they are truly narcissists or sociopaths). If they can't love themselves, can they love another? And, I know my husband really messes up the distinctions between love, sexual desire, attraction, admiration, and all sorts of stuff wrapped up in his distorted thinking. As I learn (just a teensy bit) about his romantic fantasies, I don't see it as "love" the way I define it. But, today, I don't think this question matters to me. It WILL matter to me for the future.

What does matter to me is what are the factors that have prevented me or will prevent me from creating emotional intimacy? Can my husband recover and heal enough to have genuine emotional intimacy? (We know our partners confuse emotional intensity with emotional intimacy). Can I actually forge an emotional connection with my husband if he recovers from his addiction and becomes a healthy man? Can we have a loving sexual relationship that is mature?

I also have come to believe that we can hold values and still experience emotions that are in conflict with those values. That's just human. How we respond to those emotions with action (which is what our SA's are supposed to learn) applies to us as well. I believe in treating my husband with respect, but I can want to hurt him and devalue him at the same time due to my hurt and anger. I think that's okay. I think I can acknowledge my hurt and anger (hopefully in a healthy way). I don't want to fear or pathologize my emotions. I don't want to see them as enemies to my values. They are part of me. How I act in response to them in concert with my values is my challenge.

dnell


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:36 pm
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CoachMel wrote:
Hi toffeetimetravellor
That said, what Coach Kenzo has said is true. A person with addiction will lie (etc.) to protect their environment. Consider that you and I are no different. Whatever that means will not be the same for every person. We are all coming from different (albeit similar) circumstances, with different life experiences, and different attitudes, beliefs and values.

I want to respond to this before I continue reading, mostly because I may forget what I wanted to say. :w: When I saw a counselor a few years ago who specializes in sexual addictions, I was so frustrated with my husband at the time. He was consistently performing appeasement work, which I was very aware of and wouldn't give credit for until it was sustained. He was driving me nuts! Then we would go in circles about events that I wanted answers to, the answers would seem to change and I was to say the least, highly suspect to any word or move he made.

I was sharing this with the counselor and what he said to me really caused me to stop and think. He said that even the most healthy of individuals who want to share the truth, will still tell stories from their perspective that puts them in the best light. Human nature, he explained and why eye witness testimony isn't really that reliable. He said, then if you have a person who uses lying as a way of being and you are wanting them to tell something about their secret life, it will be extremely unlikely they will get it right, especially if he knew I was upset, feeling suspicious etc. He wasn't excusing it but if even the most ethical people who aren't struggling with addictions will tell about events putting themselves in the best light, it's highly unlikely a person still struggling with addiction could do better.

It was for me, a reality check at what my husband was actually able to do at his level of health at that time. I was wanting behavior that would require some recovery work, which he wasn't doing, and a level of healthy he just wasn't living. As Mel said, I too realized I wasn't accepting who he was. (Which frankly ticked me off at the time.) I was still "hoping beyond hope" that he was different than he was. I remember when that same counselor said that to me - that I was "hoping beyond hope" and I was. I wasn't accepting him and thought I had some influence or power of persuasion. And ironically, I think my former husband still looks to me as a sort of 'guide' of sorts in how he should be acting. It can all be confusing at times.....and feels very messy to me.

Let me be clear though, just because he didn't/doesn't have the skills to be healthy doesn't mean I shouldn't have that as a boundary to be in relationship with me. The difference for me now, is that I am dropping the idea that I have or every had any influence over his behavior and how he choses to live. Boundaries for me, have become more quiet things with an occasional STOP. I used to have so may boundaries in all caps, screaming and probably in red and flashing too. They just are now. And ironically to me, he actually responds more to those than the ones where I was trying to convince, make him wrong, show him what he's done to me, show him how much better it could be.....etc.

One of the latest ones was him wanting me to watch our son Fri night to Sat afternoon on his weekend because he had to work. I have never liked it when he did this because it could go on for weeks with having half weekends for me. I wanted to help and be fair though. I told him recently, during some really reactive and upset over feeling hurt, that I no longer wanted to do half weekends but would consider switching weekends with him if he asked ahead of time. That happened last week and I said it's fine we can switch. He texted wanting to know if he should still look for someone to help him and I said no we were fine switching this week but if it was ongoing, I wasn't going to be available for weeks on end. We switched weekends and he figured something out for the next weekend. Who knew?! lol :s: It was easy and felt right to take care of myself and really let him take care of his own business. There was no emotions in the exchange, it just was what I was willing and not willing to do.

Anyway, got off on a tangent there. Healing my trauma, learning how to discern character and building boundaries around my values has been on my mind a lot lately.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Thank you everyone for such thought provoking posts.

I just want to say that I have recently started reading "Betrayal Bond" by Patrick Carnes. It was brutal at first as I saw patterns I have repeated throughout my life in many different types of relationship. This revelation wasn't comforting but shocking to me. To realize at 50 years old after so much healing work, that it is very likely that I am still operating from very old, deep patterns or conditioned responses to earlier trauma. For the last few weeks, I have been seeing my relationship with my husband instead of just his relationship with me, if that makes sense. I changed the perspective and started seeing my own messy areas on my side of the street. A friend of mine gave me that analogy last year - that a relationship is like two sides of the street and both need to keep their side cleaned up. Me, I was always on my husband's side of the street, staring in horror and disgust at the mess he had made. I literally haven't even considered my side for a very long time, not really. Doesn't mean his side isn't still a huge mess, just that I haven't paid attention to me, like I thought I had.

I really relate to not allowing myself to feel compassion for my husband at all.

dnell wrote:
Will we ever know if our partners really love/loved us? Do they really know? Do they experience love the way we do?

The answer for me is I know my husband did and does love me. He isn't able to love me the way I want or even need, but it has become clear to me, even as we divorce that he does love me. I actually wonder now if I really loved him, but I know I did at one point and it's all just clouded over by so many betrayals over such a long time. It's all just very sad at times, because to me, it looks so simple, just get help and work towards being healthy. It hurts when he says he intends to do that in his next relationship. I can see how hopeless it looks to repair ours though. And I remind myself that it would be better for everyone if he really did get healthy, but unlikely as he continues to operate from the same set of skills he had when we were together.

dnell wrote:
What does matter to me is what are the factors that have prevented me or will prevent me from creating emotional intimacy? Can my husband recover and heal enough to have genuine emotional intimacy? (We know our partners confuse emotional intensity with emotional intimacy). Can I actually forge an emotional connection with my husband if he recovers from his addiction and becomes a healthy man? Can we have a loving sexual relationship that is mature?

dnell, the fact that you are asking these questions of yourself, indicates to me at least, that you are working through that. I think it's healthy to consider the fact that the answer may be no I can't. Because the damage done to a partner and relationship is real and may in fact change things permanently even if he does become a healthy man. Those are risks of addiction. Of course, healing your relationship is also a possibility. How it plays out in your life will likely depend on very personal things to you, your husband and your relationship.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:03 pm 
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.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond with such thought provoking responses.
I did not reply straight away as I wanted to take some time to respond after careful consideration not just reactionary?

All of your insights have been very helpful! Looking at the larger picture I can see that everyone including SA has a different perspective and agenda.

My main concern was that my Husband was using minimizing behaviour to keep the addiction alive, so that he could revert if things did not work out between us, almost like he could slide back into it if I get fed up. This happened in one of our 'non talking and contact phases' he went straight back to it no problem.

He has started not minimizing his behaviour now as I strengthen my own boundaries, he even came out and declared with more honesty what he has done and why.

This has made me see a more healthy pattern of behaviour now as he understand how this has affected me and what I will not tolerate. He has made random declarations of truth in a mature way, that even though hurtful are candid and not playing them down.

I can see now that this is a early recovery phase - he has admitted that he feels better for being honest, especially as my own reaction was not to reprimand or show disgust.

By setting out my need for honesty to build trust, this has been a big step for us.

Yes Kenzo - looking back it may come across as a rant, so apologies if I seemed angry. I guess I was as the eternal roller coaster makes it difficult to function. I feel like a lot of SA do not get this aspect. That it is not the acts themselves (although truly testing) but the lies and insult to our intelligence when the lies are so obvious. I guess I was very frustrated at the continual lies as it keeps the dynamic in a holding pattern, when after trying so hard to understand, forgive and move on the SA partner keeps us in unnecessary limbo, when a simple, mature conversation would move it on, whatever the outcome?
This has been very useful as I attempt the workshop lesson on sincerity of partner.

Also there may have been times I minimized events as I did not want to face the reality of living with a liar and accept that whatever the SA reasons they were capable of such acts. I myself can accept this now and not excuse him.

I guess it boils down to this - if we are prepared to face the truth, why can't the SA? My husband says that he just does not want to believe that he is that sort of person, a person who could cause so much hurt and do such out of character acts?

So a lot of it is really when the SA is prepared to hold a mirror to their own dark side and recognise it as something that needs to be changed?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Hey TT
Quote:
so apologies if I seemed angry.
no apology required, you and all other partners have every right to be angry and indeed to express it rather than holding back


Quote:
That it is not the acts themselves (although truly testing) but the lies and insult to our intelligence when the lies are so obvious
.
again quite correct, most if not all addicts initially do not accept that they are addicts and then try to protect their "friend"
I lied for far too long initially to protect me and my addiction and then in the belief that I was protecting my ex , I was wrong and it cost me and more importantly her dearly



Quote:
So a lot of it is really when the SA is prepared to hold a mirror to their own dark side and recognise it as something that needs to be changed?

something unfortunately changed already, now and I do hope that your H recognises this another change is inevitable , he is not the master of the destiny of your relationship , you are but he needs to be worthy of that relationship
good luck to you both

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:07 am 
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Partner's Mentor

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3834
In a nutshell, old patterns are hard to change. :w: That doesn't mean your H can't change but that it's very easy to slip back into them until and unless he becomes self-aware and implements his plans for changing his behavior which he has to figure out for himself. He has to have a plan of action to immediately put into place when he realizes he's slipping. I know this can be a crazy making situation for you as it was for me. It's his job to take responsibility. Tell him how you feel when he does minimize: I feel __________ when you ___________. Just get it out there with no expectation of his understanding. Don't engage if he objects to what you feel. Walk away. Just be heard.

Minimizing.....it's so ingrained. Not going to change until your H gains personal insights and takes action. It will take practice, practice, practice on his part. How you react is up to you, but keep in mind that until he's further along, trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue isn't going to get you anywhere. Stick to your boundaries, enforce them, and use feeling statements to communicate your feelings.

Take what you can use....hope this helps.

Nellie James


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:06 pm
Posts: 28
Thanks Kenzo and Nellie,

This is a lot clearer now and feel like I am on the right track by being able to review this in a stronger way. Kenzo, you are clear in stating we partners feel how we feel, at times we feel we have to excuse our feelings to keep the peace, I feel more confident to declare how I feel whatever the response now, as it is coming from my own boundaries, not just to be oppositional.

Thanks again for responding, it has been very difficult at times making sense of the situation, friends try to understand, but it is a very complicated situation as you guys know. I would not wish it on anyone! So here I find comfort in hearing others experiences and points of view!

I hope you all have a peaceful day :sat:


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