Recovery Nation

Personal Development Forum
It is currently Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:36 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:07 pm 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 650
Based on Jon's explanation of what happens in the brain due to addiction, my understanding is that addictive behavior can alter neural pathways in the brain and alter brain chemistry. In order to restore the brain for healthier functioning, neural pathways can be healed or rewired. I know meditation and awareness exercises can rewire the pathways. I have heard that a period of abstinence can alter the pathways.

What does everyone think and what is your experience? Have you had success in rewiring the pathways? Is this a good idea? What works?
And I ask this of both partners and those in recovery based on our own experience and those of our significant others.

dnell


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:43 pm
Posts: 83
It's a very common treatment for multiple issues but rather than blabbering on with my own description here's an example of a plan on rewiring neural pathways.

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/03/tra ... hways.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:24 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 849
Location: Sweden
This I know: The brain is plastic. It changes over time depending on what you do in your life and unlike what at least I was taught in school, the body has the ability to create new brain cells. A good example of this is a study of taxi drivers in London, where it was shown that the parts of their brain that handled spatial movement was different from the average Joe. So yeah, indulging in any activity over a longer period of time will have effects on your brain. However, that goes both ways, so not engaging in that behaviour also has effects on your brain. In other words, you never cross a point in your life where your brain stops changing, as it always evolves depending on what you do in your life.

This I think I know but I'm not sure: You can't rewire your brain. The old synapses and stuff will still be there, but when you try to brake a habit and replacing it with a new one a new path in your brain will develop. Thus, a brain will never be rewired but rather will grow more complex.

This I just think, I don't know: The brain is a fantastic organ and we're basically still just getting started in getting to know it. I don't think we should take the metaphors of synaptic paths, rewiring, genetic hardwiring and other things to seriously. They are watered down concepts of a very complex field of research. If it makes understanding yourself and your actions, or someone else and his or her actions, more interesting then fine, but in the end you still have to call the shots when making a decision. If you want to call an urge a synaptic signal or a force of habit is arbitrary as long as you still accept the signifance of the urge and have a plan for how to handle it.

:g:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:42 am 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
It's funny, Martin and I were just chatting a bit about this the other day when I saw your post.

The "brain plasticity/neural rewiring" idea behind understanding addiction and recovery has become much more popular in the past few years and it makes sense; the mainstream medical community has started treating addiction more like a medical condition, so it's natural that it has become much more popular to think of it in relation to neuroscience. I think this is fundamentally a move in the right direction.

However, in my opinion, RN's method still has a step up on methods focusing on brain chemistry and "rewiring". Here's why.

I think that the brain chemistry/neuroscience focus is fundamentally a good thing because, perhaps obviously, this is far more evidence-based and functional than thinking of addiction as some kind of mysterious entity or fate that you're destined to. People learn that actually, watching porn increases neurotransmitter levels far past their usual levels, and this creates the craving that you feel, as well as rewires your brain in a way that is hard to break.

Again, this is all great...but my main question is, how practically useful is it in changing your daily life? At least for me, not much. I think it's useful to know, to a point (and even Jon wrote about how a chemical understanding of addiction he received when he was early in treatment helped him in early recovery in recognizing how sex addiction was no different than any other drug addiction). But when it comes to actually changing your life...does knowing that (hypothetically) your serotonin and dopamine levels are low when you haven't acted out in a while, really provide a long-term path to change? Does this actually help anyone when they're confronted with an urge, or a difficult life choice? I guess it could for some...everyone is different, and I don't want anyone to think I'm unduly criticizing other methods. I even thought this way earlier in recovery for a while...that when I was fighting an urge, I just had to do something healthy in order to "rewire" myself. After a while though, I kind of realized...does anyone really think like this long-term? I just couldn't see it. That was when I shifted to something closer to the RN approach...thinking in terms of thoughts, emotions, actions, etc.

So while it could work for a while, I still see a values-based, life-based approach as so much more fulfilling. While understanding such rewiring could help you end habits...so too can understanding your emotions, learning how to make healthy decisions, learning how these rituals function in the first place, etc. And the difference here is that they put you in a place to live a real human life. The other problem with the rewiring approach is that it makes all behaviour mechanical. You do something, your brain gets stimulated, emotion is felt, you do it again, that path gets strengthened...repeat. And while again this can be important to understand...it is only one angle. It misses out on so much of the entire human experience. Values like self-respect, honesty, trust, intimacy...emotions like joy, fear, anxiety, excitement...someone's unique addiction or compulsive behaviours, their unique anxieties...these are not things that can be described in mechanical, neurochemical ways. They're subjective concepts that can't be put into words...the "stuff of human experience", as it were.

Oh sure, when you feel them, certain parts of your brain light up, your physiology changes, etc. But even if you could pinpoint all the neurons that light up when you feel joy, when you experience an urge...it will never be the same as the actual experience. And the actual experience of life is where true addiction recovery happens for a person, even if they are still rewiring their brain (which, of course they are). So even if I could tell someone "all of these neurons light up every time you experience that urge"...what use is that in terms of helping them manage that urge? Far more useful is understanding the principles of emotional management, how it relates to their identity, their perception, their decisions, their sense of meaning and purpose...again, things that can't fully be described in purely biological ways...and also why people must develop these understandings on their own, do the work on their own, and that no one can be anything more than a guide to them.

Of course, changing your values, changing your emotional understanding....all of this rewires your brain. My brain is probably substantially different than it was 6 years ago. And it does so without separation...there is no "doing an action" and "rewiring your brain". It would happen simultaneously, without any separation between them. But, I do think that those who could come to think of this on a more humanistic level, would be much more likely to be able to derive a healthy, meaningful life, and feel in control of that life.

The other problem that I see with the neuroscience approach is that it lends itself to the "disease" interpretation of addiction. This person's brain is different...therefore, they must have a disease. And in recovery, this can lead to feelings of being defective, that you will never recover, that you "deserve" to be this way, etc...not incredibly helpful and potentially, devastating to both a person's quality of life, chance of recovery, etc. Rather than considering that for someone that has developed these patterns over time...it would have undoubtedly changed their brain, so obviously it will look different than a person who is not struggling with behaviours they feel they can't control. I remember Jon saying something like "I am 99% sure that the patterns that I developed drove the changes I would have likely seen on my brain scans while I was in addiction...and that if I looked at my brain now after years of healthy living, and healthy patterns, that my brain would have changed back." I would concur.

Similarly, regarding the genetic predisposition argument, I would say: there likely are people with genetic predispositions to addiction (or at least to the kind of thought patterns, emotions, or issues that can lead to addiction). I very well might have been. But similarly to the above, even if I knew that...even if a doctor told me "you're genetically predisposed to addiction"...okay, but how does that help my life? How does that help me move forward from where I am? This is always what RN's approach focuses on, no matter where or why someone has become the way they are.

Anyways...that's a few thoughts which had been lingering for a while regarding the neuroscience of addiction. It can be helpful...but I could also see where it could leave people feeling without a clear way to move forward. As well, there seems to be a trend of people thinking "if science hasn't proven it to be a problem, it must not be one! We'll wait until science has confirmed that it's a problem!"...as opposed to Jon's very clear question: "Is this behaviour creating problems in your own life? If so, then commit to changing it."

Quote:
my understanding is that addictive behavior can alter neural pathways in the brain and alter brain chemistry. In order to restore the brain for healthier functioning, neural pathways can be healed or rewired. I know meditation and awareness exercises can rewire the pathways. I have heard that a period of abstinence can alter the pathways.


As Martin says, your brain is a constantly changing entity. Addictive behaviour will change it (although I will contend that when you get down to the nitty-gritty...there is no such thing as "addictive behaviour". Any behaviour can be addictive...the compulsivity of it is not in the behaviour itself but rather in the thoughts and emotions surrounding the act)....meditation and awareness exercises will change it...abstinence from a behaviour will change it (though abstinence is not really abstinence...it's simply engaging in other behaviour. Not doing, is still doing...something. You are always doing.)

Basically, anything you do changes your brain...again, with no separation. Your brain is constantly changing and does so your entire life. It's never a static entity.

If you repeat a behaviour...and that behaviour creates a positive emotional stimulation above any stress or negative emotional stimulation...that behaviour will be prioritized for you. This is how compulsive behaviours form in the first place, in their most basic form...that behaviour balances your emotional state (even if a conflict creates more intense emotions) resulting in that behaviour becoming prioritized. Each time you engage in it again, it becomes stronger and more habitual (in neuroscience terms...neurons that fire together, wire together). Now when you meditate...essentially the same things happen, but to a lesser extent. Compulsive behaviour is really not that different than healthy, values-based behaviour, except in terms of the strength of emotions created, the intentions behind the behaviour, and the consequences of the behaviour. But, this is why abstinence is initially necessary...you simply can't start breaking these patterns, while you are still simultaneously continuing to strengthen them.

Quote:
Have you had success in rewiring the pathways?


Hmm, I would say so, given that my old patterns are much much weaker and I no longer engage in them. As Martin said, they are still there...and pop up at times when I am highly stressed. But again, I have the skills now to know that I no longer need to rely on them...and they continue to weaken over time. But, I no longer see it as rewired pathways...just life. :g:

Quote:
What works?


Well, if you have not read about the finite aspect of emotions, I'd suggest to maybe do some reading on the recovery side. :w: But basically, every thought, every emotion that you feel, of every habit you have...is simply fleeting and has a limit to its intensity. So simply allowing thoughts and emotions (particularly uncomfortable ones) to just come, allowing yourself to feel them, and releasing them (which actually happens through allowing and acceptance itself), will itself change these patterns. This is essentially what meditation is...or yoga, or really any activity where you can allow yourself to become one with your emotions. But allowing yourself to feel whatever emotions that arise, particularly difficult or uncomfortable ones...that itself will be "rewiring the pathways" or the way I see it now, "cleaning out your emotional closet". As you do this, your mind will clear over time and with practice...and your pathways will have rewired, but most importantly, your life and decision-making will seem much clearer.

Anyways, way more could be said about that, but I'll end there. Hope that helps. :g:

Boundless

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:23 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 650
Coaches Martin and Boundless - Thank you for your thoughtful posts which resonated with me. I do get that healthy life, no matter if one is in recovery or not, is based on awareness of one's emotions and thoughts, and living by values. I do get this. As Jon says in the lessons, healthy people without really being aware of it, base their choices on their value system and adjust accordingly by taking into account the impact of their choices. Circumventing responsibility and accountability disables a person from learning and from making constructive decisions. Awareness of our emotions, our thoughts, and their relationship to each other is critical for health.

I do not want to make a big deal about neural pathways since I agree that making "addiction" a disease is a disservice to those in recovery. I agree that addiction does not exist as a separate entity; it is the long term effect of running away from uncomfortable emotions with self-soothing behaviors that are ultimately ineffective (in the long term) and destructive. And, I think that we can create a lot of distorted beliefs to support our poor decisions (addict or not). I realize that some of my husband's rituals, which are so ingrained and happen so fast, can still be dealt with in the way Jon advises. It will just take time, work, awareness and commitment.

I do see the critical change that is needed for recovery that Jon spoke of: a focus must be made on living life in a healthy way, rather than focusing on "addiction."

As always, I appreciate your posts,
dnell


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:43 pm
Posts: 83
I definitely don't want to disagree with so many of the more educated members with a vast amount of knowledge which I don't possess. However, I can say that I think there's a change to both. While I understand that there's a massive amount of emotional attachment in "addiction" and I agree that SA isn't truly a "disease", neural pathways is sort of neutral in this situation.

Many head injury patients are treated for this specific issue. Either the pathway is gone, or through frustration and agitation they've developed a sense of comfort in the new pathway. Perhaps they are constantly angry due to their frustration with new limitations. Multiple forms of therapy (including meditation, yoga and aversion therapy) are used to break this "habit" of following the "simple path" until the new path exists. Now, that's not going to eliminate that path, it's going to be a choice to use the other path. I think this was what Boundless was mentioning.

An older (and crueler) technique would be examples of negative reinforcement where patient were shocked in order to transform behaviors. Now, I am sure a lot of partners are thinking, "this is an awesome plan, lets try it!", it actually shows less results than a desire to transform and following a healthy and cruelty free reinforcement.
As odd of a connection as this might be, it's why I resist the urge to lose my temper and throw old habits in my partner's face. Essentially it's just a base version of negative reinforcement even if it is short of the electro-shock therapy.

If anyone here has quit smoking, changed their diet, taken up running, stopped drinking etc (although there's a claim that drugs, alcohol and cigarettes are addictive, so is food and laziness. Studies show that dopamine is released in the brains of overeaters, couch potatoes) there's a massive adjustment period and there's stress and tension that comes with it. The last thing someone dieting, just starting an exercise program or quitting smoking needs is someone pointing out their previous failures to stop the unwanted behavior.
Quitting these behaviors also shortcuts neural pathways, why run when I can sit? Why eat salad when there's cake? Why be frustrated and angry when I can have a cigarette?

So, I think despite the phrase "Disease" being attached to it, both sides need to be addressed.

I could be wrong, I'm just the new guy here and I have been wrong before....a lot.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:51 am 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:49 pm
Posts: 1626
Quote:
I definitely don't want to disagree with so many of the more educated members with a vast amount of knowledge which I don't possess.


Oh, no worries, you can definitely disagree. :w:

Quote:
I think this was what Boundless was mentioning.


Hmm, I wasn't entirely sure what you were getting at here. For instance, for head injury patients, the neural pathways for certain behaviours very well might be completely gone. So then you would have to learn new behaviours. This would be a bit different than in addiction, where you are really just shifting from one emotional management strategy to another. So certain patterns would weaken (substantially), while every time you engaged in a new behaviour, it becomes more likely for you to engage in that behaviour again, so that pattern of course strengthens. Though again, to see it in terms of "one or the other", doesn't really account for the complexities of human behaviour. At each decision point, you usually don't have only one way or the other to choose...there could be potentially hundreds of choices.

Quote:
An older (and crueler) technique would be examples of negative reinforcement where patient were shocked in order to transform behaviors. Now, I am sure a lot of partners are thinking, "this is an awesome plan, lets try it!", it actually shows less results than a desire to transform and following a healthy and cruelty free reinforcement.
As odd of a connection as this might be, it's why I resist the urge to lose my temper and throw old habits in my partner's face. Essentially it's just a base version of negative reinforcement even if it is short of the electro-shock therapy.


Yes, and when you think about it in terms of how emotions work, there's a reason why this doesn't work long-term. Someone who has developed a true addiction, has prioritized that addiction (meaning, the patterns that make up their addiction) above all else in their life. This is why only an internal commitment to change will be sufficient to bring about long-term change. No external stimulation can provide the emotional stimulation necessary to overcome a compulsive urge. Now, say if you do start shocking someone every time they use porn. This could successfully re-associate porn with a negative stimulus and get them to stop using it...for a time.

However, such an approach really wouldn't address the complexities of the issue of addiction in their life. Even if this person was now scared to use porn (as this would basically be a fear-based approach)...they still have not developed the skills needed to manage their life. So, now, when they face a stress or imbalance, and fear going back to porn...they are just going to learn to use some other behaviour compulsively to provide those same emotions. As well, in order to keep porn negatively reinforced for them, they'd have to periodically continue undergoing shock therapy. Otherwise (and this is also why a motivation focused on avoiding the consequences of their behaviour, a motivation driven by guilt and shame, doesn't work for long-term recovery... it will only be a matter of time before that fear fades, and once the anticipated emotions they would receive from the behaviour are greater than the fear or risk associated with the behaviour, it makes sense that they will engage in the behaviour again, if they haven't gained any insight into why they do what they do.

So yes, regarding the urge to throw old habits back in your partner's face...if you are doing this with an intention to illustrate how bad they are in hopes that it will help them change, good luck. It won't work. Any guilt, shame or fear they feel will eventually fade and they'll go right back. However...if you change your intention here, and say, you bring these things up in order to hold your partner accountable when you know they have done something wrong (even though it is not your responsibility to hold your partner accountable), in order to protect your own values and boundaries (rather than to "punish" them)...this can be still healthy. Not getting angry per say, but bringing up the issue...that's just part of being an adult. In a relationship, if the other person is doing something you find unacceptable, you have to bring it up. But in a healthy relationship, this would result in the other person having some insight and changing their behaviour, if they valued your input. This likely would not be the case with an addict or someone in early recovery...basically my point here is that there is a way to do this non-angrily, in a way that reinforces your own consequences for unacceptable behaviour.

Quote:
If anyone here has quit smoking, changed their diet, taken up running, stopped drinking etc (although there's a claim that drugs, alcohol and cigarettes are addictive, so is food and laziness. Studies show that dopamine is released in the brains of overeaters, couch potatoes) there's a massive adjustment period and there's stress and tension that comes with it. The last thing someone dieting, just starting an exercise program or quitting smoking needs is someone pointing out their previous failures to stop the unwanted behavior.
Quitting these behaviors also shortcuts neural pathways, why run when I can sit? Why eat salad when there's cake? Why be frustrated and angry when I can have a cigarette?


For the first part...yes, food or laziness could be "compulsive" in a similar way to drugs and alcohol. This is primarily because people in the mainstream don't understand what compulsive behaviour entails. All this means (in its most basic form) is that someone is engaging in behaviour where the short-term emotional benefits are prioritized over the long-term consequences. That's a very simple way of looking at it, with many additional factors that could be mentioned, but that's mostly it. Everyone does this from time to time. When it becomes a problem, is when it starts creating negative consequences in your life, and the behaviours become ingrained to the point that you feel like you can't stop. Regarding dopamine or serotonin release...that is simply the neurochemical correlate to "emotional stimulation". I usually talk in terms of emotional stimulation because I find that more practical. But they're one and the same.

Regarding the massive adjustment period...that's similar to the early stages of addiction recovery. You have learned to use these patterns for emotional stimulation (in true addiction, they have become your primary emotional management source). Stop engaging in these patterns, and you not only do not get the positive stimulation they were providing, but you start to feel all the negative emotions they were covering up. This is why the early days of recovery are such a rough ride; you have not only been deprived of your comfort patterns, but you feel massive amounts of stress and tension (both that have built up from over the years, combined with daily stress) that you have no idea how to manage in healthy ways. As well, any healthy patterns that you do engage in, feel weak compared to the stimulation you got from your compulsive behaviours. It's like a perfect storm...which is why it would be a rare person who would be able to recover without outside guidance of any kind. That's also why, in terms of building healthy behaviours, you must be internally motivated enough to allow these patterns to develop positive emotions. Otherwise, your compulsive behaviours will always provide more intense emotions than any healthy behaviours (and there is a rationale for this too), so anyone not individually motivated will always go back to them eventually.

Boundless

_________________
"If you cannot find the truth right where you are, where do you expect to find it?" - Dogen

"Be a lamp unto yourself." - Buddha

"The obstacle is the path."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:42 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3783
Location: UK
interesting post
I wonder Dnell what prompted the question
my two peneth for what it is worth is that I dont know and I expect that very few if any brain surgeons really know
but I ask do the mechanics really matter
we know that people change
addicts change even if only temporarily when we are caught
Our loved one change when they catch us
then its down to what happens next and that is so much more important as to how or why it happens
I agree with coach B and advocate the RN value based philosophy
why
because I have ridden that horse and I know it is a winner
I have said it before but if a tool works then use it none of us can change the past but all of us can change the future
RN shows us that we actually do have choice

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:53 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 650
Coach Kenzo, thank you for your perceptive question about what prompted my post. I believe in the RN approach for becoming a healthy person who can overcome destructive compulsive behavior and obsessive thoughts. I know that it takes commitment. Sincere commitment. Dare I say, ruthless commitment. I also know it takes time. So much of the fantasy life of an addict can occur covertly. So much of the objectification can occur covertly. And, so much of the betrayal can occur covertly. Yes, as a partner I have learned to trust my instincts about the "presence" of my partner. But, I don't trust my partner. So, in areas of interacting with my husband, some of which make me feel quite vulnerable, I don't trust him. I guess I wanted re-assurance that the ingrained behaviors and attitudes CAN change over time with enough practice, commitment and a new healthy identity and life. Jon has taught me what to look for and I deeply appreciate his wisdom. It's challenging knowing how vulnerable to be and what to do with our partners when they have not yet become the potentially healthy man that can be within them.

dnell


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:27 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3783
Location: UK
Hi dnell
thanks for that response though I am still confused with the neural pathway viewpoint and re wiring etc
however
Quote:
I don't trust my partner.

and why would you?
he hurt and betrayed you
trust is almost like a match, once extinguished it cannot be struck again
hence a new match is required and the responsibility for that lies with the addict
we need to recover consistently and earn every crumb relating to relationship that any partner bestows on us and we need to do this without reservation

Quote:
It's challenging knowing how vulnerable to be and what to do with our partners when they have not yet become the potentially healthy man that can be within them.

quite right I nor any other recovered / in recovery addict can really know that vulnerability we think we can because we also feel vulnerable
the difference is that we brought it all about, you had it dropped onto you
I do hope that your H does regain at least some element of your trust, but only if he deserves it

does the neural pathway viewpoint matter
no IMO
what matters is real positive and permanent change
That as CB noted and THE Coach provided this site for

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:29 am 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 849
Location: Sweden
I actually heard from a colleague who has no reason to make these things up that they've managed to see on brainscans (or whatever it's called) that people make decisions before they become aware of them. That is, if you are deciding on whether or not to get of the couch and then finally decide to do so, you will have made the decision and started rising from the couch before you're aware of it. I guess we're talking like a tenth of a second or something

If this is true, I think the RN (and similar methods) workshop is very well equipped to deal with the construction of the brain, as it helps addicts to realize when they're veering into the wrong direction and make a new decision. A Practical decision making 101 as the workshop provides then actually has benefits on a more general level but also on a neuroscientific level. Don't really know if this rant makes sense but I learned this and just felt, wow, what a workshop.

:)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:21 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3783
Location: UK
Hi Coach M
Quote:
I learned this and just felt, wow, what a workshop.
:g: :g: :g: :g: :g: :g:
isn't that a major reason that we are here for
I Know that this site and this community taught me many things about myself and about life, life as it should be with values and boundaries
interesting comment from your colleague
Quote:
people make decisions before they become aware of them.

addicts certainly do , or at least I did
I made decisions and then denied them, then I found RN
Quote:
wow, what a workshop

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group