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 Post subject: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:53 am 
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Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3829
Location: UK
Trust
Is trust like a match, once struck it is gone, or can trust be rebuilt?
I dont know
I know that I can trust myself not to return to addiction not to harm myself and my ex , but previously I did not have that trust hence I never destroyed it
However my ex did have that trust in me, and I did destroy that, so she will obviously have a totally different outlook
So my question
Post recovery should we addicts expect to be trusted by those innocents that we took down with us, and when this trust is not forthcoming how does it affect the relationship?

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:35 am
Posts: 1126
Kenzo,
I'm back here after a long spell away. Back again because of the same old problems.

You ask us partners a question - Is trust like a match, once struck it is gone, or can trust be rebuilt?

From my own experiences and being the person I am my answer would have to be a very emphatic NO it can't ever be rebuilt. Why would I ever trust a man who acted out with prostitutes for over 25 years, getting mostly away with it for that length of time because although I suspected I could never find the proof. I remember how he lied to my face, I remember how he used to tell me how much he loved me and would never be unfaithful. etc etc etc. Of course I remember. Hell would freeze over before I would trust him with me, my feelings, my vulnerability or the self worth and confidence I have been trying to rebuild. I'm afraid once trust has gone, it's gone and all hopes of a meaningful relationship with it. But that's just me, others may be way more forgiving.

Lizzie.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:14 am 
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Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 661
I don't think trust, once it has been shattered so completely, can ever be restored 100%. I think the partner who shattered the trust can change their behavior, over time, to repair the breach. But it takes time and a deep courage and commitment to behave with integrity. I read the advice of a recovered addict who said: "I had to learn to value being in reality and being honest more than anything else. I had to be honest with my wife even if it hurt." I believe I need to see that level of honesty on a consistent and long term basis.

And, that honesty is shown in many ways. Does my husband do what he says he is going to do? Does he mean what he says and says what he means? Does he withhold feelings, thoughts, information? Does he show a commitment to us as a couple in all ways?

Even with all of that, partners are advised to trust our partners behaviors, not their words. In fact, we're advised to "trust but verify". For the rest of our lives. Can that way of life lead to true intimacy? I don't yet know since I haven't achieved that level of trust with my husband. I trust him more than I used to; I don't trust him the way I did when I married him; there's not yet enough trust for true intimacy. I don't yet know if there ever will be.

dnell


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Recovery Mentor

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 293
Quote:
Post recovery should we addicts expect to be trusted by those innocents that we took down with us, and when this trust is not forthcoming how does it affect the relationship?

The word expect stands out to me. No, we can't possibly expect it.

Can an addict hope and wait? Absolutely.

As addicts we may find ourselves trying to "make partners understand" the work we've done as grounds for taking us back or creating trust again. To expect that they'll accept this is a losing battle. We must instead wait, have hope, keep evolving, seek understanding of their pain, accept the consequences and be accountable for our actions. There is no tangible evidence that could be given to prove "why you should trust me"--not even a print out of the thousands of words we have in own threads would suffice. Dnell makes excellent points, the only evidence is the EFFORT that we continue to relentlessly put into avoiding complacency and slips.

IMO the original trust cannot be rebuilt because my wife did not marry whom she thought she did. I must allow her to grieve and mourn that person. She instead married a person capable of inflicting great pain, lying, and decimating our vows. That person, however, was also capable of change. As I rebuild my values and develop my emotional maturity I have become a different person. This is not a cop out--I am still carrying my affliction. I allowed my identity to align with my behaviors. In the height of my addiction, I was unwilling to be held accountable for my actions nor accept the consequences. I am also aware that my addictive behaviors could return if I CHOSE to allow them.

But as you pointed out in my thread,
Quote:
celebrate the person that you have become by evolving that person into the best there ever has been Healthily

I have evolved. If willing and able, our partners too can learn to know this new individual. Learn to trust this new individual on a different level. If the damaged relationship can sustain it, the justifiable trauma healed, a new foundation of trust can be built based on the person the recovering addict has become. It's not shiny, it's not perfect, but it exists in some form. IMO, the effort the addict puts into their recovery (avoiding complacency and appropriately managing slip reduction) coupled with absolute honesty is what leads to that new foundation.

I find myself in a situation of rarity. My wife has given unrelenting forgiveness, immeasurable Grace, and unconditional love.
I have asked her, "Why haven't you left me?"
To which she responds, "Because I know you have the capacity to change, that you are made for greater things and that I love you."
"I don't think I deserve it."
"Then earn it."
Our actions are what caused the trauma; our actions are also what can bring health and healing to both.

So I add a question to yours, Kenzo, What are the limits of unconditional love? I certainly have tested them and choose not to ever again. But as Dnell mentioned, these are just words. I shall prove that commitment with action.


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:26 am
Posts: 61
I am just starting developing healthy intimate relationships. I told my girlfriend that I used porn for more than 8-9 years + the story of how I changed over the last year. She wasn't a very trusting person, had her own issues as well, and was very suspicious of me all of the time: Will you ever watch porn again?! Will you ever drink alcohol?!
She didn't experience my addictions, but she wasn't trusting. Actually our relationship is over because of so many variables that got in our way, but I guess one major thing was TRUST. She couldn't trust me, I couldn't trust her as well. We are relatively young, thus, lessons learnt, moving along... My point being that even in my case where the girl hadn't experienced my addiction firsthand, the issue of not trusting arises.

anon523 I guess only the stoical approach of action is the real thing. Marcus Aurelius : “Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.” And be one for YOU, not for others. I guess this is very important, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:57 am 
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Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3829
Location: UK
Thanks Guys much appreciated
EXPECT
: regard as likely to happen

To expect is also to ask for something to happen because you think you have a right to ask for it:

I thought that I was hoping to win back some element of trust from my ex , however I now believe that I was expecting this, what a T**T
What gives me, the perpetrator of her pain and suffering the right to expect anything from her?

Anything she gives or does not give is her choice and quite simply I need to be fully appreciative of that fact as well as being appreciative and very grateful for anything that she bestows
She on the other hand can expect truth, respect, love, honour,faithfulness, consistency and growth from me if I want to play any part in her present and future life, additionally I demand this from myself in my journey through life

So I think we agree
Once that trust is gone it is lost forever, rebuilding any new trust is down to the individuals moving forwards, or not!
Thanks again, and still hoping for more contributions to this and many other important and significant questions, responses from others certainly realigns my thoughts when they get out of kilter as I am sure they do for others in our communities

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:34 pm
Posts: 92
I hope I'm not chiming in too late, on a rather old thread.

I don't know if i can answer the question. maybe if D hadn't played his games for so long, maybe if he hadn't withheld so much during the recovery/therapy time, maybe I would be able to begin to trust him now. So two years after what he says was successful therapy, and no acting out at all, well, I don't trust him, I don't have faith in his words, that he will tell me the truth, because all he ever did was lie and omit, and minimize even during and after the successful therapy, after many promises he still withheld crucial information. And I don't mean ugly details, i knew better than that long ago. even now, when he speaks of old stuff, i have to stop him when he is goiing into too much detail, which seems to frustrate him when he is trying to share, i can't help it, i know what sort of details will only torture me more. Really what I wanted to know was the basics, what rituals/behaviors were/are there (without detail on individual events), what the known triggers were, and frequency of triggers/urges during recovery so I would have a yardstick in order to measure the progress, and the honesty to build trust, so we could have a future.

My point is that he is the one that taught me he is nothing but a liar (sorry to be so blunt but that is my take away after 7 yrs of lies and hidden behaviors), it was to him to teach me that he could in fact be truthful, and in order to do that, he had to tell me the truth, even the painful stuff, yes, it would hurt me to know he had acted out again recently, or had went through a strong urge (but as I told him, successfully managing an urge is good news that I needed to hear, even if it kind of hurt on a personall level)

so now, perhaps, he is way better, or recovered or mostly recovered, maybe that's true, im not sure, and I know i can't trust him to tel me if he acted out yesterday or was starting to spiral into a relapse (info i need to be able to protect myself, which he always refused to give me), so no trust, no foundation to repair the marriage, no future i can look to with any good feelings.

Recently, he did tell me of a recent urge, well, he always did that, only disclosed recent information (usually a partial truth at that) when i was on my way out the door, to try to convince me to stay. so i can't trust that as a true honesty. his time to prove it to me was during or soon after recovery or therapy, and he missed the boat. and i don't know if building trust is even possible now. and i dont know if im willing to try anymore. mostly not.

I havn't fully decided yet, Im still considering the ins and outs of it all, but Im so very close to leaving him completely forever, regardless of if he is recoverred, and despite the fact that i still love him as much as i can let myself. I guess if he is really recovered, that really stinks for him. but no trust is not a relationship to me, i don't want it anymore. I just want to move on now. maybe we will go with in house separation, and it will be business only.

sorry this was so long


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:31 pm
Posts: 246
Kenzo wrote:
Trust
Is trust like a match, once struck it is gone, or can trust be rebuilt?


Trust is crushed like a match by OUR actions/inactions, selfish decisions, illusions and lies .... all happening over and over and over again.

Do we want and need our partners' trust ..... ABSOLUTELY. Do we deserve it ABSOLUTELY NOT.

We each had our chance, probably MANY chances to gain it back and continued to screw it up for OUR comfort, OUR selfishness, OUR addictions with NO thought given to our partners and their wants and needs ... EVER.

And when we finally reach the point of taking our recovery seriously and REALLY wanting, needing and working for it .... we just can't understand why they can't just "forgive and forget".

We ripped their hearts and minds into tiny fragments over and over and over, destroyed their self-respect, self-worth and self-confidence to many times to count without a care of ANY kind.

The simple fact that many partners still even acknowledge our existence, let alone are still with us and tolerating us is a sad testimony to THEIR love.

i am NOT who She thought i was when we married, i am NOT who i thought i was when we married, i am NOT who i thought i was throughout my life though She sensed it ..... i was a chameleon, adapting myself to what i though i needed to be in a given situation. i think most of us are that way, loosing (or forgetting or even ignoring) who we actually are in favor the the pretend us that "fit" when and where we are ....

At this point i know far more about who i am NOT then who i am, but that is progress for me....

Will She EVER trust me again ??? i hope and pray that she will see the person i am destroying and rebuilding, and that She might love him, but that may or may not ever happen.

i think the same is true for all of us addicts, young and old.

We can hope and pray, and work our butts off to that end, but we CAN NOT demand it or expect it.

We deserve the emotional ass ripings we get as hard as it is to accept them, and they deserve our full attention to what they are saying and feeling WITHOUT defense or denial no matter how hard that is .... and it IS hard, but we did it both to ourselves and to them, though they did NOT deserve it .....

So bite the bullet fellow addicts, we're getting FAR less then we deserve.

Bottom line, trust may or may not EVER be restored, rebuilt or built again but that is our partners choice ... NOT ours, we made our stupid selfish choices already ......


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:42 pm
Posts: 175
I have been away from Recovery for a long time. My wife and I (mostly her) had a conversation about trust today. I have been in SA and RN in the past. I do not use the actual tools in either program but I have incorporated parts of both programs in who I am today. I mostly pray and surrender urges and temptation and it has been working for me MOST OF THE TIME BUT NOT ALWAYS.
My wife and I have been closer today for a few years then we have been in past. Even though I don't act out with MB or porn. I still occasionally look at an attractive women for a few seconds before I look away and surrender it before it turns to lust.
Back to the trust situation which happened last week at a family function. My wife and her family speak Spanish when they get together but I don't understand the language. There was a women sitting next to me who is also a family member who I have only seen a few times and she does not speak Spanish either. I was talking and joking with her for over an hour. Her adult son and daughter were sitting across from us but was not part of the conversation. At the time I did not see anything wrong with it because she was a family member and my wife was next to me. IT TOOK MY WIFE NOT MYSELF TO POINT OUT THAT I AM AN ADDICT AND A MARRIED MAN AND I SHOULD NOT BE HAVE LONG CONVERSATIONS WITH A WOMEN.
She pointed out to me that if I tell her I am recovered I should known better. SHE IS RIGHT AND THIS IS ANOTHER REASON SHE DOES NOT TRUST ME.
i REALIZE AS I HAVE WRITTEN THIS THAT i NEED TO SERIOUSLY COME BACK TO RN.
Thank You for this post Kenzo.
Recovery


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:15 am 
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Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3829
Location: UK
Hello recovery
you wrote
Quote:
i NEED TO SERIOUSLY COME BACK TO RN.

So do so, what do you have to lose, this thread is about trust
trust this programme and commit so that you can then trust yourself
it really is not rocket science
Choose recovery or choose addiction , you do have that choice

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


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 Post subject: Re: Trust, both sides
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:26 am
Posts: 61
Yesterday I read "Affirmations" book in a meeting of ACOA and people from dysfunctional families. What really struck me is this idea written in the end of the article of "Sexual Compulsiveness". So simple, but so true.
Quote:
Sex should come out of trust and respect.
:pe: Anyways, when you get to the definitions and explanations on what respect and trust are, it could become more complex of a saying, and emerging multiple interpretations can occur. Trust and respect are intertwined as well. They both encompass demonstration (action), communication, reliability, accountability, appreciation of differences, boundaries (sexual and non-sexual), knowing yourself and etc. To conclude, it takes a lot of learning for those whose values were deteriorated throughout years of active addiction, but it is totally worth the effort as our lives become better. :g:
Quote:
Is trust like a match, once struck it is gone, or can trust be rebuilt?

As from what I wrote about trust and respect and what they encompass, I believe it becomes not only learning, but also a lot of work in some cases where one party has completely lost trust :e: . It may take a lot of time as well. To sum up, rebuilding takes Time, Communication and PURE HONESTY. I believe it can happen, it's difficult to rebuild, but it can happen if both parties are willing.


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