Recovery Nation

Personal Development Forum
It is currently Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:13 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:35 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3798
Location: UK
I read this at a Christmas market today and it struck a chord with me regarding both recovery and healing
so I throw it out and appreciate any forthcoming response

Quote:
If we do not change our way of thinking
how can we expect to change our lives?


IMO
THE COACH provides us with this insight
we would be /are remiss not to embrace it

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:08 am 
Offline
Partner's Coach

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 1291
This reminds me of a recent conversation with a friend who is a psychologist. She was explaining cognitive behavior therapy and it was fascinating. That really for best results we have to change our behavior, our thinking and our thinking about our behavior. She further explained exposure therapy for someone dealing with anxiety involves literally putting yourself in the anxiety-provoking situation and monitoring your thoughts AS you experience the anxiety and eventually the lessoning of the anxiety and realizing, nope this won't kill me. It was interesting. After our conversation, I was thinking about how for a time there, I would try to watch my reactions, my actions, my thinking, my feelings about experiences. It was very helpful to me to do that and I think in my own way I stumbled on doing something similar to what she explained.....experienced my anxieties, depressions etc, and came through them. Will I ever relish being in situations I find depressing or anxiety-provoking? No probably not. But I know now I can handle them and be okay. Stressful situations no longer paralyze me or cause huge over reactions. Generally if I feel urgency now, it causes me to slow down rather than speed up and react, unless there is literally a tiger chasing me. :w: I started changing my thoughts by observing them, rather than being unconsciously carried away by them. Then I pondered my values for a very long time and how thoughts, feeling, actions, reactions lined up with them or not. If they didn't line up, I wondered about the reasons. Just some thoughts on what I've learned.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:10 am 
Offline
General Mentor

Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:47 pm
Posts: 694
Quote:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

I love this quote ... it's the epitome of my life before RN.

When I started this journey I did not know exactly what was wrong, what I have to change, what I will discover ... I was not even very sure about who I want to be and what I want to pursue in life ... how could have I known? I may have been breathing for over three decades but I did little living as such ... It took me six months even to understand the concept of values or better said, to experience it on a deeper level except intellectually. And that happended when I found something I really deeply cared about - I wanted to know the truth ... I wanted to know who I really am and what has happened, for the very first time I desperately wanted to know.

Change is embedded in the very nature of things, we just need to open ourselves to it, recognise it and build on it. We just need to stop fighting against it. We just need to stop stuffing our ears and close our eyes. We just need to stop running and let things unfold, for good or for worse knowing that there is a time and intensity limit to emotions. Yes, we cannot change our lives without changing our way of thinking. But sometimes changing our way of thinking is nothing more than being willing to listen, to ponder and stand our ground against our emotions.

These last two years have been by far the most difficult but also the most rewarding in my entire life. My recovery saved me from others and from myself. Still working on it ... there are a lot to be done but to improve the quality of my life, not to run away from destruction. Changing my way of thinking has always happened incrementally, imperceptibly, but looking back it's a reality which cannot be denied. You will know it when it happens to you.

_________________
"A wholehearted attention feels like the nurturing presence that I always wished I had in a parent. Now I am free to be there for myself in a way that I assumed I needed from someone else." Tara Bennett-Goleman, Emotional Alchemy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:43 pm
Posts: 83
Quote:
If we do not change our way of thinking
how can we expect to change our lives?


Here's my sad reality.
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, but I've been hurt to the point that I refuse to change until I see change.
I know I can't wait for my partner to change in order to change myself to get healthier, but I am unwilling to change and be vulnerable again.
Realistically, I know if I refuse to change I can't expect change.

The ridiculous circle of my statement is what constantly brings me back here for the wisdom I find, I hope some day it sinks in and I stop the stupid circle of ridiculousness you just read.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:49 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3798
Location: UK
Hello Hadenough
Sorry for anglisising but it is only out of respect
I would not and indeed could not suggest that advice from the dark side could help you ladies in the light but I do implore you to look to yourself as the you that you love
Quote:
I refuse to change until I see change.
I am unwilling to change and be vulnerable again.


your healing, I believe depends on you and you alone , heal well my lady heal for you
thanks for sharing

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:52 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3798
Location: UK
Ursula
Quote:
Changing my way of thinking has always happened incrementally, imperceptibly, but looking back it's a reality which cannot be denied. You will know it when it happens to you.


:g: thanks for sharing

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:56 am 
Offline
General Mentor

Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:47 pm
Posts: 694
hadenuff,

I'm really sorry for what you are going through. Unfortunately, I can relate to some of it myself. I'm also a partner and this is how the journey towards myself has started for me. In due time it became painfully obvious for me that I lack in many respects and some of the things I saw in my H applied to me as well, even though they had more or less different behavioural outlets.

Change is happening to you right now. I believe you don't feel like the same person you were before all of this came to light. You've changed. You've learnt not to trust, you've learnt to detach, you've learnt to protect yourself, you've learnt how to live in terrible pain, to breath while torn, to carry on without hope. All of this can suck the life out of you if you let it to. I know I lost it at times but I found my way back, towards myself, taking care of myself, spending time with myself, carrying for myself.

hadenuff wrote:
but I am unwilling to change and be vulnerable again.

It would be foolish for you to put yourself out there only to be hurt again. You are protecting yourself from probably imminent danger. If you haven't seen solid changes in your partner's way of doing things, if you have not witnessed small changes towards sustaining her values, then, by all means, it would be foolish to force yourself to make any changes in this area. Your safety comes first. Your sanity comes first. Your loyalty should be first to yourself, secondly to the fate of your relationship. Like this, whatever happens, you won't have quarrels with yourself, you won't live the terrible regret of abandoning yourself.

hadenuff wrote:
Realistically, I know if I refuse to change I can't expect change.

Change is there alright ... but maybe it's not the change you wanted or hoped for ... Maybe change for you actually means keeping your ground and refusing to believe anything in the absence of solid, consistent proof. Is there some sense of urgency about your opening up and being vulnerable? If there is, I would encourage you to analyze where it's coming from. If your partner puts pressure on you to lower your defences, I would tread very carefully and stick to what I believe in. If you put pressure on yourself, well, it becomes a bit more complicated but do try to get to the bottom of it, it can have more than one meaning and I believe it's important to realize what is happening. For me understanding things has always solved half of the problem. Strictly about learning to trust again (if this is what you mean by being vulnerable) ... it's the hardest thing and it will unfold in a very very long time, in different steps and stages, prompted by real change on her part and your own healing ... I can say that now after more than 2 years since my own Dday, my defences are still up but I find myself less affected about things in general.


As a ground rule, I wouldn't make a change to myself to accommodate my partner or our relationship, not for "the greater good", as they say. The only way to make a change is through my values, if I recognise that the change would make me a better person, if it would bring me closer to the person I want to become. Otherwise, no. Not for him, not for our relationship's sake, not for things to be easier, not for stopping fights and pain, not for still having a chance of being together ... only for me, if the change would bring me closer to my values.

My heart goes out to you ... hang in there, I know you will make it through

Ursula

_________________
"A wholehearted attention feels like the nurturing presence that I always wished I had in a parent. Now I am free to be there for myself in a way that I assumed I needed from someone else." Tara Bennett-Goleman, Emotional Alchemy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:43 pm
Posts: 83
Kenzo wrote:
I would not and indeed could not suggest that advice from the dark side could help you ladies in the light but I do implore you to look to yourself as the you that you love


Hey Kenzo, in all sincerity, not only have I received excellent advice from the "dark side", but some of the first assistance I received here was from the "dark side" and I stumbled through them. I realized after, that my reactions and comments were offensive and rude. They reached out and offered to help and I slapped the helping hand away because of their past.
They were amazingly understanding and were truly excellent guides in getting started.

With that said, I think it's solid advice.

Kenzo wrote:
Quote:
I refuse to change until I see change.
I am unwilling to change and be vulnerable again.

your healing, I believe depends on you and you alone , heal well my lady heal for you
thanks for sharing


Right now a lot of my healing is accepting that my partner might be incapable of getting healthy.

I appreciate you opening this to both sides, I think more of these reasonable discussions might be helpful for both sides. I read the recovery side occasionally to gain a deeper understanding as well as a deeper appreciation for what happens on the other side of the fence.

Maybe, some healthy both sides discussions might be helpful?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:43 pm
Posts: 83
Here in lies the biggest challenge of dealing with all of this.

Kenzo is making sweet and endearing comments with hope for my personal healing.
Ursula is making a overwhelming effort to ensure that I'm taking care of myself.

In between, there's this weird chasm, knowing I'm not changing and expecting there to be change. Expecting my partner to change when I'm not willing to. Hardening myself against more damage while my partner is supposed to be softening to reduce the damage being done.

I envy the healthy recovery people, I envy the healthy partners and I feel angry and frustrated by my view from the bottom of the chasm.

Ursula, I desperately want to reply but I'm concerned it might be inappropriate in this forum.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:09 am 
Offline
Partner's Mentor

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:34 pm
Posts: 656
Kenzo, thanks as always for the thoughtful post. Changing my thinking has been critical to my healing. And, I have come to realize how important it is for me to develop awareness. Awareness about my thinking and my emotions. Jon does such a good job in teaching us about the relationship between our emotions, thoughts and the choices we make in response to these thoughts and emotions.

hadenuff, I think you and I have changed. We have come to an awareness about our partners that is painful and enraging. That awareness is a change in itself. For me, it has the benefit of clarity. It's so nice to get out of the toxic smog of the secrets and lies of my husband. This awareness has the benefit of releasing me from the blame. And, the hardening of our hearts, another change, while we wait....that is a reasonable response. We need to see competent and consistent change in our partners. They need to not only recover, but to become emotionally mature and healthy adults. They need to become someone who can actually be an intimate partner. Until we see and, more importantly, feel that change, it is self protective to guard ourselves. And, our partners actually do need to learn to accept the impact of their behavior on us. In order to become healthy, they need to learn to be responsible and accountable, while doing so with self acceptance and self compassion.

As Jon says in one of our lessons, at some point if our partners do become healthy adults, we will be faced with choices: should we recommit emotionally? are we ready to see them as something other than addicts? do we have enough trust in them? I hope I can reach that point with my husband, and I know it will be very, very hard for me to make the choice to trust and recommit. That awareness, or change in my thinking, is a change in me. It is reasonable. Kenzo has shown me the true change that can occur. But, I am aware that I will have the courage and grace to grapple with the choices I will need to make if my husband becomes a healthy man. And I know you, hadenuff, will have the courage and grace as well.

With deep compassion,
dnell


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:54 pm 
Offline
Recovery Coach

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 3798
Location: UK
DNell
Quote:
is it reasonable. Kenzo has shown me the true change that can occur.

No
you have discovered this through RN you did this you wanted and the generated change

Quote:
I am aware that I will have the courage and grace to grapple with the choices I will need to make if my husband becomes a healthy man.


you will
I believe it but choices also need to be made if he does not

my ex wife is in that dilemma
can she trust
can she take that leap of faith

believe me recovery and healing is more than possible
the once an addict always an addict theory is outdated
How do I know?
because I and many others are living proof

_________________
Remember recovery is more than abstinence
Every transition begins with an ending
Do not confuse happiness with seeking pleasure
stay healthy keep safe
Coach Kenzo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:26 am 
Offline
Recovery Mentor

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:13 am
Posts: 687
This is pinned at the top of the community forum written coach Mel.
I would like to talk about the use of "both sides open" in the forums as ourgrowing population has given rise to a increase in cross posting, which has been met with some backlash from some community members. Back when I first joined Recovery Nation, the forums were completely separate, and while I am certain that some partners frequently read threads on the recovery forums (and likewise, some recovering members read on the partners) it was not something that was encouraged.

Some reasons why cross posting is not encouraged:

1. It distracts some members from where they should be placing their focus.
2. It can be used as a way to seek unhealthy stimulation from members of the recovery path (for partners) and vice versa.
3. Most members view Recovery Nation as a safe place to come to, to share their feelings and concerns openly, and to get down to the business of healing and recovery. Having open posts causes some members to feel violated or unsafe to share openly in both the support and/or the lesson response forums.
4. Not all members are responsible for themselves, nor do we all consider the impact of our actions on others; we simply do not have the staff to monitor all posts for these members and "both sides welcome" can occur as an open invitation to flame at members of the other side. This is rare, but has happened.

Now, here it is our philosophy that we are each responsible for our own healing and recovery processes, and we encourage members to develop self-awareness and to practice discernment, filtering their own actions through their own values, within the context of the bigger picture of their lives. We also encourage a supportive and mutually respectful atmosphere. Given these values, we do not want to create a rule that no posts can ever be opened to both sides, as sometimes there is a very valid reason for so doing. Further, micromanaging the community in this way takes the power away from its members to manage themselves.

Some things to remember when creating, posting or reading "both sides welcome".

1. Regardless of the path we are on, our perceptions are subjective to our experiences, and also subject to our own motives. Sometimes we think we will get objective information from members of the other forums (and granted, sometimes we do) but the most objective information is available from the coaches (or from the workshop lessons themselves). It is our commitment and duty to this community, as coaches, to be objective.
2. We all have our own values that we live by and these values can be reflected in our exchanges on the forums. Further, we are all in various stages of vision and values development work; some people prefer to post in support forums than do the work.
3. Wrong-making is discouraged. We are all entitled to our own opinions, and we are free to share those opinions, but in the context of the rules of the forum, and out of sheer respect for others, we do not impose our opinions or make others wrong for theirs.
4. Before you post a both sides welcome question or response, filter your decision for so doing through the above considerations and ask yourself:
What is the main reason for my post?
Does my query require responses from both sides? (see #1)
What are the potential conflicts or boundary violations that can arise?
It is a possibility that I am looking for attention or stimulation from members of the "other side"?
If I suspect so, what is the motivation for my seeking? (lonely, bored etc.) and how can I better provide myself with stimulation or attention in a healthy way?
Am I violating any boundaries by posting this? (If you are unsure of where the line is, consider that that is where your line is!)
Is there a values based purpose to seeking answers from "both sides"

I also want to discuss some healthy reasons for both sides welcome posts. In opening ourselves up to healthy communication with members from the other sides of the forum, we can foster respect, relatedness, unity, objectivity, shared goals, non-judgement, compassion, equality, humanizing of others (or de-objectification), etc. We can gain insight from the other members (remembering the subjectivity factor). We can gain comparative information (but again, people vary in where they are in the process, and not two addictions are exactly alike, just as no two individuals are exactly alike and, comparing is extrinsically driven whereas healing and recovery are intrinsic).

Before I close, I want to reiterate that our community is as it is because of its membership and our shared commitment to healthy based healing and recovery. We do not want to ban both sides welcome posting, but we are prepared to if people do not respect the collective values of this community and of the site when creating or participating in such posts. If anyone has anything constructive to contribute to this subject, please do. We ask you all to join us in supporting our mission and keep Recovery Nation the amazing an invaluable resource that it is.

Be well.

_________________
"When everything else is stripped away the essential is reveled." B.K.S. Iyengar


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group